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atpollard

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@atpollard @tango
What is "biblical Christianity" and who defines it?
Biblical Christianity is Christianity as defined by the scriptures found in the Bible.

My intention in using “Biblical Christianity” was to exclude those teachings that “claim” to be Christianity, but are easily refuted by anyone and everyone that has ever actually READ the Bible.
  • One example on “unbiblical Christianity” would be the teaching that Christians never get sick, so anyone that ever gets sick ... just lacks the faith to heal themselves. Anyone that has ever read the Bible knows that is not what God’s word teaches.
  • The Prosperity Gospel, where God is some sort of slot machine that always pays off at least 10:1 every $ you invest ... because the most important thing in the universe to God is supporting the limitless human avarice among people that want to claim to be His children.
If you do not know that these things are unbiblical, then I doubt that anything that I might say will change your mind.
 

atpollard

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The couch potato Christian. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”

Not for the couch potato to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Not for the couch potato to run the race (1Cor 9:24-27)

Not for the couch potato to be rich in good works (1Tim 6:18) or

Nor are the couch potato which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.(Ti 3:8)

But the couch potato is one whose end shall be according to their works (2Cor 11:15)

Try reading Mt 25:31-46 for the fate of those who think faith is enough and no effort is required by them.
Actually, we just want to keep Ephesians 2:10 AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9 and not allow people to try and convince us that Ephesians 2:10 should come FIRST and only then have we EARNED Ephesians 2:8-9.
 

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No, because even Baptism is what God does to us! We can't baptize ourselves.

We have to believe.
We have to turn up for baptism.

I would agree that what good things we do, we do them with God's grace. But we have to co-operate with God grace to do them. We are not puppets. God does not force us.
Read Mt 25:31-46 and then tell me that there is nothing that we have to do.
 

Stephen

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Actually, we just want to keep Ephesians 2:10 AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9 and not allow people to try and convince us that Ephesians 2:10 should come FIRST and only then have we EARNED Ephesians 2:8-9.

I agree with Eph 2:8-10 but it says nothing about earning anything.

Do you agree with the verses I posted?
Or are you just ignoring them?
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Marcus Aurelius wrote --- Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
What if there are gods, but our morality has been so perverted by the evil of this world that we can no longer discern and comprehend the morality of the gods, so that we can live according to their morality? It is quite possible in this world to do evil while thinking that you're doing good, and Jesus Himself acknowledged this when He told the apostles that people will persecute and kill them while thinking that they (the people who do the persecuting and the killing) are doing God's Will. And an example of this is Saul the Pharisee, later known as the apostle Paul. The man was deceived into thinking that, when he was persecuting Christians, he was doing the Will of God.
 

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We have to believe.
We have to turn up for baptism.

I would agree that what good things we do, we do them with God's grace. But we have to co-operate with God grace to do them. We are not puppets. God does not force us.
Read Mt 25:31-46 and then tell me that there is nothing that we have to do.

We can't believe without first having faith that is by God's grace. And faith believes in the forgiveness won at the cross. That was before you were born and is a done thing. YOU are forgiven. God gives faith to believe that. You said God doesn't force us...actually HE DOES. He died without our permission and rose again without our permission. He gives us faith according to His good will.
 

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Pick a religion and explain to me that it’s proponents do good deeds with no expectation of benefits in THIS life.
I am not going to prove the belief of ALL OTHER religions to your satisfaction.

As I have stated, it is my observation that all other religions practice “good deeds” for benefits in THIS LIFE (and often the next). Islam does not promote the Caliphate and Shira Law for benefits in the afterlife ... Islam is focused on mastery in this life based on the example of conquest through feigned weakness, political agitation and militant conquest as the community progressively grows in power ... following the example set by Mohammad.

I welcome proof that I am wrong. Quote the Quran or Hadith and explain that Islam promises nothing but trouble in this world and all hope is in the next world.

Hinduism is based on making offerings to one of the thousands of gods to bring about good fortune (IN THIS WORLD).

Buddhism teaches that unhappiness in THIS LIFE is tied to our bondage to the material world, so they seek asceticism as a means to break the ties of the material world to bring HAPPINESS IN THIS LIFE.

Animism is about performing rituals to defend against evil spirits that cause illness and to appease nature spirits (like the spirit of the deer) to avoid offending them and to bring luck in the hunt. That is about actions to gain benefit in THIS LIFE.

If I am wrong, then tell me what religion teaches otherwise. The fact that all people suffer does not change what the religions teach the rituals are for. Why does a Muslim abstain from pork and pray 5 times a day? Is it just “protection from Hell” or is it about favor in THIS LIFE?

I agree with you on this! Christianity is the ONLY religion where God does something for our salvation. Let me change that to "everything".
 

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What if there are gods, but our morality has been so perverted by the evil of this world that we can no longer discern and comprehend the morality of the gods, so that we can live according to their morality? It is quite possible in this world to do evil while thinking that you're doing good, and Jesus Himself acknowledged this when He told the apostles that people will persecute and kill them while thinking that they (the people who do the persecuting and the killing) are doing God's Will. And an example of this is Saul the Pharisee, later known as the apostle Paul. The man was deceived into thinking that, when he was persecuting Christians, he was doing the Will of God.

There are no other gods...false gods but no gods. We have one God.
 

Stephen

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We can't believe without first having faith that is by God's grace. And faith believes in the forgiveness won at the cross. That was before you were born and is a done thing. YOU are forgiven. God gives faith to believe that. You said God doesn't force us...actually HE DOES. He died without our permission and rose again without our permission. He gives us faith according to His good will.

That's may be your opinion but it is not what the Bible teaches. But then your supply no evidence for your claims.
 

tango

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Pick a religion and explain to me that it’s proponents do good deeds with no expectation of benefits in THIS life.
I am not going to prove the belief of ALL OTHER religions to your satisfaction.

As I have stated, it is my observation that all other religions practice “good deeds” for benefits in THIS LIFE (and often the next). Islam does not promote the Caliphate and Shira Law for benefits in the afterlife ... Islam is focused on mastery in this life based on the example of conquest through feigned weakness, political agitation and militant conquest as the community progressively grows in power ... following the example set by Mohammad.

One could say the same about Christianity, if you really want to go there. Look at the kind of garbage pumped out by the likes of Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson et al. Health and wealth in this life. Do the right things and God will reward you in the here and now.

Religions that teach reincarnation typically, in my experience at least, have a focus on doing good deeds to earn a promotion in your next life with an ultimate aim of reaching some kind of transcendence. In other words, earn good karma now for a reward in your next life even if your next life is likely to be back on this earth. Where some faiths promise heaven or hell after death, now you're talking about a promotion or a demotion in the next life. Do good stuff now and maybe you come back as royalty. Do bad stuff now and maybe you come back as a pig or a blade of grass or something.

It's hugely naive to assume that good works in this life make no difference at all. At the most basic level if you plant an acorn then in several years someone else will benefit from a honking great oak tree. Feeding the hungry could be driven by a wish to avoid wasting that surplus food I have kicking around, it could be an expression of God's love or it could be simply a compassionate act based on seeing another human being in need and having the means to help.

If anything I'd say a big difference between Christianity and other faiths is that we could expect a Christian to do good works in this life to create benefits in this life. If we start from the idea that "we love because he first loved us" and "love your neighbor as yourself" we would expect that to manifest in love for our fellow man. We aren't doing it to earn a reward in heaven because we can be confident that a place is waiting for us. Other faiths that don't have that assurance are more likely to be doing it to earn a reward later.
 

tango

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Biblical Christianity is Christianity as defined by the scriptures found in the Bible.

My intention in using “Biblical Christianity” was to exclude those teachings that “claim” to be Christianity, but are easily refuted by anyone and everyone that has ever actually READ the Bible.
  • One example on “unbiblical Christianity” would be the teaching that Christians never get sick, so anyone that ever gets sick ... just lacks the faith to heal themselves. Anyone that has ever read the Bible knows that is not what God’s word teaches.
  • The Prosperity Gospel, where God is some sort of slot machine that always pays off at least 10:1 every $ you invest ... because the most important thing in the universe to God is supporting the limitless human avarice among people that want to claim to be His children.
If you do not know that these things are unbiblical, then I doubt that anything that I might say will change your mind.

The trouble is that many people who promote such things do use the Bible to teach them.

You know, verses like "By his stripes we are healed" (Is 53:5), "Who heals all your diseases" (Ps 103:3) etc.

It goes right back to the question of whose interpretation of the Bible is correct. My view (which it sounds like you agree with) is that to create the health-and-wealth messages you have to cut Scripture apart and join it back together more like a ransom note than anything useful but just look at the number of people who follow those teachings and it's clear there are a lot of people who would disagree.
 

tango

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Marcus Aurelius wrote --- Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

If there are gods who are unjust (of course this immediately asks the question of what definition of "just" we want to use, as if we get to define the term) but those gods have the power to hand out rewards and punishments we may want to worship them as an act of self-preservation. The choice of whether to pay homage to a vengeful vindictive deity in order to escape their wrath doesn't seem like much of a choice but it complicates things beyond singing kumbaya just because.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Look at the kind of garbage pumped out by the likes of Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson et al. Health and wealth in this life. Do the right things and God will reward you in the here and now.
And the confusing doctrine that "some believers randomly suffer because God is random and mysterious, and who are we to demand answers?" is any better? At least those people you criticize have the gift of encouragement.
 

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That's may be your opinion but it is not what the Bible teaches. But then your supply no evidence for your claims.

If Jesus hasn't redeemed you then what was the point of His death?

Here are the Gospel verses that show that Jesus is your Savior and you are not part-Savior (contributing to your salvation):

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."


You see, the free gift of salvation is so free that you don't earn it. When a Father saves a child from death (that's us sinners!), He doesn't wait around for that child to somehow prove his worth.
 

tango

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And the confusing doctrine that "some believers randomly suffer because God is random and mysterious, and who are we to demand answers?" is any better? At least those people you criticize have the gift of encouragement.

Encouragement isn't much use if all it creates is false hope and broken promises.

At least the doctrine that God gets to decide based on whatever criteria he chooses, whatever we might think of the arrangement, is consistent with what we can see. I'm not sure what's confusing about the concept that a deity who created us gets to decide our fate, if I'm honest. A doctrine that claims we get to decide what God is expected to do does nothing more than turn us into gods and God into our servant.
 

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According to the Qu’ran, the “people of the Book” will go to Hell, however, it is not because of our failure to honor Mohammed. We will be in Hell for the same reason most Muslims will be in Hell ... our life will be judged based on whether our good deeds outweigh our sins. Those whose sins weigh more than their good deeds are condemned to fire.
Sunni Muslims emphasize jihad (holy war) as a salvific and purifying action to gain special access to Paradise.
If Allah is the true “god”, then god has no love for men and we can never be ”good enough”. All men are damned irrespective of beliefs and Paradise is full of god’s mass murderers. No human being has any hope.
Hello,

As you can see, I am new to this Forum. It is not my style - being an old geezer - to jump into a theme uninvited; I wonder, therefore, if I may have your permission to comment on each of the above.

Many thanks, and have a great day.
 

atpollard

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The trouble is that many people who promote such things do use the Bible to teach them.

You know, verses like "By his stripes we are healed" (Is 53:5), "Who heals all your diseases" (Ps 103:3) etc.

It goes right back to the question of whose interpretation of the Bible is correct. My view (which it sounds like you agree with) is that to create the health-and-wealth messages you have to cut Scripture apart and join it back together more like a ransom note than anything useful but just look at the number of people who follow those teachings and it's clear there are a lot of people who would disagree.
I do agree with you.

On the other hand, books have authors and authors have a message inherent in their book. I COULD cut and paste HAMLET (by William Shakesphere) into something that said anything that I wanted it to say, however that would not change the innate reality that what Shakespeare actually wrote does communicate a specific message. Virtually everyone that reads it agrees about most of what the author was attempting to communicate with arguments arising only over the subtle details.

So too with religious books. The Torrah and Rabbinical writings of Judaism have a basic message that the majority that read them honestly will agree on what they teach (even if they argue over whether or not it is true). The 66 books of the common Bible have a basic message that the majority of honest readers will agree on what it teaches. So too, the Quran and Haddith have a basic message that an honest reader can comprehend. I have not read the Vedas, but I suspect that the same is true for Hinduism.

Those that preach the “Prosperity Gospel” and many other radical heresies have done the equivalent of cutting and pasting lines from Hamlet to turn it into a “Romantic Comedy”. Sure it can be done, but nobody that honestly reads Hamlet will conclude that Shakespeare was writing a Romantic Comedy.

The natural reading following the intent of the author is what I applied to all religions when drawing comparisons about what they actually teach ... not “what can some radical fringe believe about it”.
 

atpollard

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Hello,

As you can see, I am new to this Forum. It is not my style - being an old geezer - to jump into a theme uninvited; I wonder, therefore, if I may have your permission to comment on each of the above.

Many thanks, and have a great day.
I have no objection.

Just out of curiosity, what “flavor” of Islam do you follow?
[I know just enough to be dangerous ;) ... Just as Christians are “Catholic or Baptist or Pentecostal, etc.” with important differences between what the different groups believe, I understand that Muslims are Shia or Sunni or Ahmadiyya, etc. with some important differences between the what the groups believe.]
 

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If Jesus hasn't redeemed you then what was the point of His death?

Here are the Gospel verses that show that Jesus is your Savior and you are not part-Savior (contributing to your salvation):

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."


You see, the free gift of salvation is so free that you don't earn it. When a Father saves a child from death (that's us sinners!), He doesn't wait around for that child to somehow prove his worth.
This idea that Jesus has done it all and there is nothing for us to do is not scriptural.

"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."" (1Pet 1:14-16)
Are we still conformed to previous passions?

Are we yet holy as God is holy?

Is there something we can do to become more holy?

”"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1).
WE can do something to cleanse ourselves and become more holy.

“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” (Heb 12:14).
WE have to do some striving for holiness.

It seems Jesus left us something to do.

If there is nothing for us to do why does Paul say:
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. (1Cor 11:1)

Why does the writer of Hebrews say:
“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” (Heb 13:7)

Then consider this:
“I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labour. For we are God's fellow workers” (1Cor 3:6-9).

Why was any planting or watering needed if Jesus has done it all?

Why would Paul or Apollos get any wages if Jesus has done it all?

Why would God have co-workers if Jesus has done it all?

Let’s approach this from another perspective.
Many Protestants take an either/or view – that either we do it all (therefore salvation by our own works) or that God does it all. We have nothing to offer.

But all through history God has invited people to participate in his work, starting the Adam naming the animals in the Garden of Eden. This is not just our passive acceptance but active participation.

Paul calls himself one of “God’s fellow workers” (1 Cor 3:9)
“I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” (1Cor 3:6-7)

In Acts 18:23 Luke says about Paul “After spending some time there he departed and went from place to place through the region of Galatia and Phrygia, strengthening all the disciples.”

Was that Paul strengthening the disciples all his own work?
Was it God’s work alone?
Was not Paul watering and God giving growth?

In Mt 16:18 Jesus says to Peter “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church”.
Who is building the Church? Jesus!

But in 1Cor 14:12 Paul tells the Corinthians to “strive to excel in building up the church”
He says in Eph 4:12 that Jesus gave the disciples various gifts “for building up the body of Christ” (which is the Church).
Is Paul contradicting Jesus who said HE would build his Church?

Of course not! Paul and others are actively participating in the work of Christ.

That does not make their contribution of equal value to Jesus’. Far from it!
It is the same with Christ’s work on us, cleansing and purifying us; making us perfect and holy, fit for heaven. We actively participate in that work, not just passive acceptance, but active participation.

What some people want is easy peasy salvation.. We just sit back like couch potatoes because Jesus has done it all.

But Jesus said:
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (Mt 7:13-14).

What is the hard way that leads to life?
It is the way that Jesus (who is the Way) trod.

It involves:
suffering (Acts 14:22, Rom 8:18)
maintaining faith (Acts 14:22, Heb 10:38, 1Pet1:6-9)
obedience (Mt 7:21, 12:50)
patience and perseverance (Jas 5:7-12,
helping the poor (Jas 2:14-17)
loving even enemies (Lk 6:27)
repenting of sins (Rev 2:5)
self denial (Mt 16:24)
and more

This is the path to holiness. Christ has trodden it before us. We do not tread it alone because Christ is with us. But tread it we must if we wish to enter life.
 
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