Woman bishops

[JRT]

The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that it emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himself seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy plus Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

 

[pinacled]

The issue of womens' role in the church is not as clear cut as some people would think. The letters of Paul, which date to the middle of the first century AD, provide some clues. For example, Paul greets Prisca, Junia, Julia, and Nereus' sister, who worked and traveled as missionaries in pairs with their husbands or brothers (Romans 16:3, 7, 15) as equals and co-workers. Junia is praised as a prominent apostle, imprisoned for her faith. Mary and Persis are commended for their hard work (Romans 16:6, 12). Euodia and Syntyche are called his fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3). Women were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19), Lydia of Thyatira (Acts 16:15) and Nympha of Laodicea (Colossians 4:15). Women held offices and played significant roles in group worship, such as the deacon Phoebe (Romans 16:1) and women were certainly praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11). An order of widows served formal roles of ministry (I Timothy 5:9-10). Women prophets included Mary Magdalene, the Corinthian women, Philip's daughters, Ammia of Philadelphia, Philumene, the visionary martyr Perpetua, Maximilla, Priscilla (Prisca), and Quintilla.

When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that it emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himself seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy plus Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

[ "This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law."]

What society and law are you referring to in the above statement?

Egypt?

 

[pinacled]

Is that the best you can come up with?

The Bishop of London

www.london.anglican.org

I was wondering about the alleged roles of bishop being altered to alienate gender pronouns.
Meaning a man claiming to be a woman could serve the role of bishop while claiming to be a "woman"?

All of the factors involved are quite suspect.

 

[pinacled]

No need to move the topic since it is talking about "are there more reasons to deny bishophood to females?"

Although traditionally women weren't allowed to hold any bishop or pastor positions, there are valid Christian churches that believe otherwise. As Josiah wrote, the LCMS does not ordain women but the larger Lutheran church, ELCA does.

One big reason the Lutheran church does not ordain women is because of the verse where women should not have authority over men. Pilgrim gave more verses.

To be technical.
The word definition role of bishop is strictly a british governing subject.


1 timothy 3 is speaking of Male leaders of a congregation.

 

[JRT]

[ "This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law."]

What society and law are you referring to in the above statement?

Egypt?

The Hebrew/Jewish society as reflected in the Bible.

 

[pinacled]

The Hebrew/Jewish society as reflected in the Bible.

The hebrew/jewish Torah(Law) very much esteem's women including chava(eve) the mother of all living.
And their are many protections for women found in Torah.

Not sure why you are demeaning hebrew culture and the bible.
But its apparent that motives are at play.


I gave the example of deborah.
Do you consider the account of esther to devalue the role of women in a hebrew society?

 

[pinacled]

Shabbat Shirah

 

[pinacled]

No need to move the topic since it is talking about "are there more reasons to deny bishophood to females?"

Although traditionally women weren't allowed to hold any bishop or pastor positions, there are valid Christian churches that believe otherwise. As Josiah wrote, the LCMS does not ordain women but the larger Lutheran church, ELCA does.

One big reason the Lutheran church does not ordain women is because of the verse where women should not have authority over men. Pilgrim gave more verses.

Perhaps the Politics forum then?

 

[Lamb]

Perhaps the Politics forum then?

No, because the way the OP is using Bishops is not political.

 

[pinacled]

The Hebrew/Jewish society as reflected in the Bible.

Did you know that esther was named haddasah?
Similar to a chessed myrtle shade of kindness during the cool of day with an evening husband as her head.
Zechariah 1

6 Bible verses about Myrtle

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

Also similar to brit chadashah(new covenant)

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

No, because the way the OP is using Bishops is not political.

Very well,
Just thought clarification was in order concerning a British government.

 

[pinacled]

No, because the way the OP is using Bishops is not political.

The enemy will use Florida and British isles to encroach freedom

 

[pinacled]

Lord saru is a litmus

 

[Lamb]

This isn't a political thread. The OP is asking about supporting scriptures for not allowing women to be "bishops" which is the equivalent of a Pastor. Let's get back to that topic.

 

[pinacled]

pol·i·tics

/ˈpäləˌtiks/

noun

the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

 

[Lamb]

pol·i·tics

/ˈpäləˌtiks/

noun

the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

And that's not what this thread is about.

 

[pinacled]

And that's not what this thread is about.

How so.
["England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history."]

The op is addressing the British government.
Unlike the U.S. there is no distinction between religion and governance.
No separation of church and state affairs

Isaiah 3:12

 

[hedrick]

Such an argument is very problematic.

1. There's ZERO evidence that He choose only males because only males were qualified. Obviously, they all were but there's NOTHING in Scripture that REMOTELY indicates only males could have been chosen.

Jesus also had a few women among his core group of followers. I'm not so sure there was much difference between the men and women. We don't have stories of how the women ended up in the group, while we do have call stories for a few of the men. But is there any reason to doubt that he called the women as well?

 

[hedrick]

One big reason the Lutheran church does not ordain women is because of the verse where women should not have authority over men. Pilgrim gave more verses.

Or wives shouldn't have authority over their husbands. It could equally well be translated that way. It also makes more sense of the explanation. If you read 1 Tim 2:16 as about women in general, I think you end up with women not be trustworthy because they are more easily deceived. If you read husband and wife, then he might have meant that Adam didn't exercize his proper role as head of the family by using his own judgement.

Personally, I think 1 Tim wasn't by Paul, and 1 Tim 2 is frankly anti-woman, but if you want to avoid that I think my suggestion is the best way.

 

[pinacled]

How so.
["England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history."]

The op is addressing the British government.
Unlike the U.S. there is no distinction between religion and governance.
No separation of church and state affairs

Isaiah 3:12

I'll add that Britain is far removed from democracy.
Their governing is a model of dictation through leaders of parliament using a dual house theocratic authority.