Woman bishops

Lord Saru

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The Church of England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history. While we take a look at bible, we understand that all the disciples of Jesus are males and it was their duty to preach his word to the other worlds.

Apart from the gender stereotyping and the biblical context, are there more reasons to deny bishophood to females?
 

Josiah

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The denomination my parish belongs to (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) only permits male clergy (and of course only male bishops - whom we call "District Presidents" but pretty much same/same).

I have mixed feelings about that. On on the one hand, I don't think this view can be solidly supported by Scripture (at least without problems) but I DO hold that biblically, it is much stronger than the opposite (not so restricting) practice. But I do not call those who do not so restrict "wrong" just that IMO their position is weaker.

But here is here I'd lean on Tradition (the historic, universal embrace of the church, of Christians, through the ages). Lutherans are not the strict individualists as some are, we hold that the Bible was given to US (the whole church catholic, to ALL believers throughout the centuries and continents) and that the "interpretation of Scripture" by such is important. And here it is abundantly clear. While I understand there IS some unclarity on this in the first 300 years or so (the custom is not very clear), it has been since. This whole idea of ordaining women and of women bishops is a VERY, VERY new invention by a VERY small minority of Christians). For ME, the "burden of proof" lies with this tiny, very new minority with a different view: Show it correct via Scripture. IMO, they can't. They CAN show that the historic practice of the whole Christian church is not CLEAR in Scripture, but their new invention is even less clear. But that's me. I don't necessarily say Methodists are being heretic here, just unorthodox and embracing a very new and very weak position. I'm sure such is not unique to any denomination on issues.



Thank you!


Josiah




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tango

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Arguably a side note but from what I've seen most of the opposition to women in the priesthood comes from women. I remember having a very surreal discussion a few years back with two women in church both of whom were strongly opposed to women priests while I (a man, in case my profile isn't clear) didn't see a problem with it.
 

Josiah

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we understand that all the disciples of Jesus are males and it was their duty to preach his word to the other worlds.


Such an argument is very problematic.

1. There's ZERO evidence that He choose only males because only males were qualified. Obviously, they all were but there's NOTHING in Scripture that REMOTELY indicates only males could have been chosen.

2. They were also all Hebrews. Of the race of Abraham. So, that would mean the Pope can't be a bishop (much less a pope).

3. IF ONLY the 12 could preach the word, then only the 12 could. And since they are all dead, well.... there are MILLIONS of Christians doing what according to this argument what they are forbidden to do.

Yes, all the 12 were males. And if you add Matthias and Paul, that's 14 men. But Scripture doesn't seem to state their gender mattered. Anymore than their race, ethnicity, native language, hair color or anything else that might have been common to all 12-14.


As for my fairly worthless personal OPINION about female bishops, that's given in post #2.



Thank you!


Josiah




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Pilgrim

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The Church of England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history. While we take a look at bible, we understand that all the disciples of Jesus are males and it was their duty to preach his word to the other worlds.

Apart from the gender stereotyping and the biblical context, are there more reasons to deny bishophood to females?
I believe scripture does emphasize the man being the head of the woman & it was because Adam harkened unto his wife rather than the Word of God that was spoken to him directly is why the woman is to be in subjection to the man & why man not to be subjected to the woman. It is not a rebuke towards the woman but towards the man.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. ~ KJV

Paul's references to the above can be found below in those references.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. ~ KJV

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ~ KJV

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. ~ KJV

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. ~ KJV

Other than the obvious...

1 Timothy 3:1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. ~ KJV

Christian wives are permitted to serve the Lord in outward ministry. Home Bible studies, social events, & public ministry are means to maintain fellowship during the week in keeping members active in the body of Christ & bring in new members into the church. If you can discern this as vital for maintaining active members as well as bringing in new members, women should not really be coveting men's roles inside the church. There is even a prophesy regarding suffering a woman to teach in church in Revelation 2:18-25 where they went astray by.

Is it too late for the churches to be pruned by the Lord to bear more fruit? Only God can say & cause the increase in.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ~ KJV

Not every church is listening to Him & His words in being His disciples in following Him.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I believe that is the difference of being His disciple in seeking His glory by testifying of Him rather than a disciple of a church in seeking her glory by testifying of the church & what she stands for.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. ~ KJV

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. ~ KJV

I believe that is why churches in the New Testament are identified by what location they hail from so that all churches are not speaking about themselves but Jesus Christ the Lord in what He has done & is doing in the lives of His saints so others can hope in Him for all things too..
 

pinacled

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The Church of England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history. While we take a look at bible, we understand that all the disciples of Jesus are males and it was their duty to preach his word to the other worlds.

Apart from the gender stereotyping and the biblical context, are there more reasons to deny bishophood to females?
The church of of England has done no such thing.
 

Josiah

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The church of of England has done no such thing.


Wrong.

The Church of England (the Anglican Church) has permitted women bishops since 2015; the first woman was made so that same year.

There are currently SIX women bishops in the Church of England:







.
 
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pinacled

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Wrong.

The Church of England (the Anglican Church) has permitted women bishops since 1994; the first woman was made so that same year.



.
Hearsay
 

Josiah

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JRT

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Pilgrim --- I am convinced that the gender roles that we see embedded in scripture do not reflect the will of God but are simply the societal norms of a people who lived two to three thousand years ago in a far away land.
 

pinacled

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Pilgrim --- I am convinced that the gender roles that we see embedded in scripture do not reflect the will of God but are simply the societal norms of a people who lived two to three thousand years ago in a far away land.
Which people are you refferring to?

Deborah was a judge within yisrael if I recall correctly
 

Josiah

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See post # 7



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pinacled

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Wrong.

The Church of England (the Anglican Church) has permitted women bishops since 2015; the first woman was made so that same year.

There are currently SIX women bishops in the Church of England:







.
Oh,

The British government founded by Henry the 8th?

That's not apart of The Lords body.
 

Josiah

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Oh,

The British government founded by Henry the 8th?

That's not apart of The Lords body.


Here is what was posted:

"The Church of England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history"

To which you replied:

"The church of England has done no such thing."

To which I said:

"Wrong" And gave significant proof that the Church of English indeed HAS started appointing Bishops. I even listed all 6 now so serving.


Frankly, it doesn't matter if you consider the Church of English to be a part of the Lord's body or not; your claim was that it does not have women bishops. And your claim is wrong.







.
 

pinacled

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Here is what was posted:

"The Church of England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history"

To which you replied:

"The church of England has done no such thing."

To which I said:

"Wrong" And gave significant proof that the Church of English indeed HAS started appointing Bishops. I even listed all 6 now so serving.


Frankly, it doesn't matter if you consider the Church of English to be a part of the Lord's body or not; your claim was that it does not have women bishops. And your claim is wrong.







.
My mistake

I misunderstood the phrase meaning of "church of england".

Britian does have a well documented history that is quite problematic.
 

pinacled

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Here is what was posted:

"The Church of England started with appointing women as bishops in the recent history"

To which you replied:

"The church of England has done no such thing."

To which I said:

"Wrong" And gave significant proof that the Church of English indeed HAS started appointing Bishops. I even listed all 6 now so serving.


Frankly, it doesn't matter if you consider the Church of English to be a part of the Lord's body or not; your claim was that it does not have women bishops. And your claim is wrong.







.
I doubt any "woman" would ever have Henry the 8th as their husband and sole mediator of governing contrary to The Law of The Holy One.

Seems obvious don't you think?

Ephesians 5:25
 
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pinacled

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I doubt any "woman" would ever have Henry the 8th as their husband and sole mediator of governing contrary to The Law of The Holy One.

Seems obvious don't you think?

Ephesians 5:25
I wonder if such a topic would be in necessity moved to controversy theology?

Though sorcerers lie about history.

There is room for discussion amongst discreet adults.
 

Lamb

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I wonder if such a topic would be in necessity moved to controversy theology?

Though sorcerers lie about history.

There is room for discussion amongst discreet adults.

No need to move the topic since it is talking about "are there more reasons to deny bishophood to females?"

Although traditionally women weren't allowed to hold any bishop or pastor positions, there are valid Christian churches that believe otherwise. As Josiah wrote, the LCMS does not ordain women but the larger Lutheran church, ELCA does.

One big reason the Lutheran church does not ordain women is because of the verse where women should not have authority over men. Pilgrim gave more verses.
 
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