ROMANS: THE WRATH OF GOD

[Doug]

(Romans 1:18-20 KJV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The wrath of God has been revealed. God is just because mankind, by the creation, has seen the invisible attributes of God and is without excuse; mankind has held the revealed truth of God in unrighteousness.

What has been known of God from the creation has been expressed in scripture:

(Psalm 19:1-4 KJV) 1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

(Psalm 8:3 KJV) When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

(Psalm 143:5 KJV) I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.

God, by his grace, has saved us from wrath and reconciled us through Christ:

(Romans 5:6 KJV) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[JRT]

I find it difficult to think of "wrath" as a characteristic of the divine. It seems that some biblical writers envisioned God much like a despotic middle-eastern potentate --- arbitrary, jealous, vengeful and, yes, wrathful. Do we take all the worst vices of humanity and assign them to God. I don't. Because I can't.

 

[Doug]

I find it difficult to think of "wrath" as a characteristic of the divine. It seems that some biblical writers envisioned God much like a despotic middle-eastern potentate --- arbitrary, jealous, vengeful and, yes, wrathful. Do we take all the worst vices of humanity and assign them to God. I don't. Because I can't.

The wrath of God appears in scripture.......his justice, mercy and compassion is found in Christ.

 

[JRT]

The wrath of God appears in scripture.......his justice, mercy and compassion is found in Christ.

I am well aware of that but I am not entirely convinced that everything that appears in scripture is to be taken literally.

 

[pinacled]

I am well aware of that but I am not entirely convinced that everything that appears in scripture is to be taken literally.

No literal mercy in christ?

 

[hedrick]

I find it difficult to think of "wrath" as a characteristic of the divine. It seems that some biblical writers envisioned God much like a despotic middle-eastern potentate --- arbitrary, jealous, vengeful and, yes, wrathful. Do we take all the worst vices of humanity and assign them to God. I don't. Because I can't.

I think it’s easy to believe that when God looks at some of what has gone wrong he is angry. Vengeful, not necessarily. The Bible shows him as committed to justice, which in some visions means making things right. It's reasonable to think that this includes accountability, confronting people with the evil that they have done.

Where we differ is whether the aim is entirely restorative, or whether justice includes punishment as an end in itself (beyond its deterrent or corrective value), and whether it includes endless punishment.

Surely both perspectives do appear in the NT, often in the same author. The question is which vision we take to be controlling.

 

[JRT]

No literal mercy in christ?

I have no hesitancy in believing that.

 

[Doug]

I am well aware of that but I am not entirely convinced that everything that appears in scripture is to be taken literally.

I think common sense would apply in what is literal and what is allegory......Jesus said he is the door as an example; it would be evident this was figurative....where passages speak of wrath why would it not be meant to be taken literally?

 

[JRT]

With the exception of the ravings of John of Patmos in Revelation, the wrath passages are mostly pre-exilic in the OT. Their conception of God seem to be based on the typical behaviour of tyrannical middle eastern despots. After over 75 years of maturing in the faith I am convinced that most passages in scripture are not literal. That does not mean that they do not convey spiritual truths.

 

[hedrick]

With the exception of the ravings of John of Patmos in Revelation, the wrath passages are mostly pre-exilic in the OT. Their conception of God seem to be based on the typical behaviour of tyrannical middle eastern despots. After over 75 years of maturing in the faith I am convinced that most passages in scripture are not literal. That does not mean that they do not convey spiritual truths.

Also Paul and pseudo-Paul. I checked in TDNT. No evidence that it's used for frustration or things people bring on themselves. It's God act, and although anger may not be quite the same for God and us, it has that tinge to it, unlike judgement, which can be positive.

That doesn't mean attributing it to God is right, of course.