USA Mail In Voting

[tango]

Doesn't CA comply with Real ID? If so, there's a lot more checking going on than depending upon the applicant to check the right box.

Isn't RealID an optional extra feature? If you want a driving license to support RealID there are more hoops to jump through. If you want to use it as ID to access federal buildings etc you need to do it, if you just want it to prove you're not likely to drive into a tree you don't need to jump through all those hoops.

 

[Josiah]

Doesn't CA comply with Real ID? If so, there's a lot more checking going on than depending upon the applicant to check the right box.

MANY opt to just get the driver's license. There's no mandate (or even recommendation) to opt for Real ID. Now, the State insures everyone that ALL who requested to be registered ARE American citizens because they checked the box that says they are. But there's no way to confirm that.

Since the People's Republic of California is a ONE-PARTY state.... and since that party believes (probably correctly) that non-US citizens vote overwhelmingly for their party, they aere't too concerned about this.




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[hedrick]

Here’s a fact check that claims non citizens are not being registered. https://www.factcheck.org/2018/09/false-claim-of-california-registering-noncitizens-to-vote/. Do you have reason to think it’s wrong?

 

[hedrick]

The problem may exist in other states though. https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/6978...registered-to-vote-but-usually-not-on-purpose

 

[tango]

Here’s a fact check that claims non citizens are not being registered. https://www.factcheck.org/2018/09/false-claim-of-california-registering-noncitizens-to-vote/. Do you have reason to think it’s wrong?

Looking at that article it seems to be addressing the claim that the state is registering non-citizens to vote. If true that's hugely serious (and indeed would justify removal of California representation in the election, removal of federal representation in general etc). It's a different proposition entirely to argue that non-citizens are being allowed to register to vote, that non-citizens are sent voting papers that allow them to vote, and that people registering to vote aren't being vetted to make sure they are citizens and therefore eligible to vote.

 

[Josiah]

Here’s a fact check that claims non citizens are not being registered. https://www.factcheck.org/2018/09/false-claim-of-california-registering-noncitizens-to-vote/. Do you have reason to think it’s wrong?

The ONLY way the DMV has to know if an applicant is a US citizen or not is if they check the "yes" in the appropriate box.



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[hedrick]

The ONLY way the DMV has to know if an applicant is a US citizen or not is if they check the "yes" in the appropriate box.
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The documents they require for proof of identity would be sufficient. I don’t know how they use them though.

 

[tango]

The documents they require for proof of identity would be sufficient. I don’t know how they use them though.

What documents that prove identity also prove citizenship? The only one that comes to mind is a passport and, given how many Americans don't have a passport, I'm going to hazard a guess that many of them don't have that proof of citizenship. Perhaps a birth certificate would do it, assuming the staff at the DMV take the time to check that people who tick the "register to vote" box are only registered to vote in elections in which they are actually eligible to vote (to make life interesting lawful residents are allowed to vote in some elections but not others).

 

[hedrick]

What documents that prove identity also prove citizenship? The only one that comes to mind is a passport and, given how many Americans don't have a passport, I'm going to hazard a guess that many of them don't have that proof of citizenship. Perhaps a birth certificate would do it, assuming the staff at the DMV take the time to check that people who tick the "register to vote" box are only registered to vote in elections in which they are actually eligible to vote (to make life interesting lawful residents are allowed to vote in some elections but not others).

Here's the list: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/03/federal_noncompliant_dl_docslist.pdf. I believe all of them imply either citizenship or non-citizenship.

Here's the Real ID list: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/drive...-id/how-do-i-get-a-real-id/real-id-checklist/. I don't see that it's very different, except that it omits documents that would apply to non-citizens.

A US birth certificate shows citizenship, but does't necessarily prove you are the person associated with the certificate. At least not if you're born in Ohio, where birth certificates are public records. The residency and SSN documents would help establish that. It's actually very hard to prove who you are without relying on some other document that in itself isn't perfect. If you ever lost all documents, it would be very hard to bootstrap everything needed, except if you were born in Ohio. Real ID requires the State to verify that the documents are real, but it's not so clear that it helps prove that the person presenting the document is the person described. It's not clear how much better they could do.

 

[hedrick]

Incidentlally the following https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-undocumented-person-california-drivers-license.html claims that undocumented licenses are a separate type of license, referred to as AB60 (after the law authorizing them). They have "FEDERAL LIMITS APPLY" stamped on them. In principle anyone is eligible for this type of license, but there would be no reason a citizen would get it. They would get either Real ID or a normal non-Real ID license.

Furthermore, this https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/california-motor-voter/ says that people getting that class of license aren't eligible for the motor voter program.

 

[tango]

Here's the list: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/03/federal_noncompliant_dl_docslist.pdf. I believe all of them imply either citizenship or non-citizenship.

Here's the Real ID list: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/drive...-id/how-do-i-get-a-real-id/real-id-checklist/. I don't see that it's very different, except that it omits documents that would apply to non-citizens.

A US birth certificate shows citizenship, but does't necessarily prove you are the person associated with the certificate. At least not if you're born in Ohio, where birth certificates are public records. The residency and SSN documents would help establish that. It's actually very hard to prove who you are without relying on some other document that in itself isn't perfect. If you ever lost all documents, it would be very hard to bootstrap everything needed, except if you were born in Ohio. Real ID requires the State to verify that the documents are real, but it's not so clear that it helps prove that the person presenting the document is the person described. It's not clear how much better they could do.

Perhaps the birth certificate is part of the problem. As you say it looks like at least most of the documents on the list would imply whether or not the bearer was a citizen or some category of immigrant. What complicates matters is that at least some lawful immigrants can legally register to vote, but are not eligible to vote in federal elections. I don't know if the system has a simple "yes/no" option when registering to vote or if it can process a bit of extra granularity and register people to vote in local and state elections but not federal elections. Hence, if the system relies on the honesty of the would-be voter, it introduces a weakness in the system - even if the registered voter does the right thing and declines to vote in a federal election the fact the voting papers are out there means someone who gets hold of them could vote, especially if there is no requirement to produce ID when casting a vote.