Did Abraham conjure up his own faith...

[Particular]

Particular, you still haven't addressed what was stated within the verses and instead you are saying that they are out of context and misunderstood and that's not factual. The verses do not discount God's promises so you can stop shoving that line repeatedly. The verses state what happens when man throws out faith that God has given to him. Reflect on that and you'll see that the verses hold to be true...because there are plenty of them within scripture.

I actually did address Josiah's quote from 1 Timothy. I did not go through every verse because I have read all those passages and know that Josiah is misapplying the sentences to make it seem like they support his position when the context of the entire letter shows he is wrong.
If I was addressing a Muslim who was using Josiah's sentence method of theology, I would explain to him his error by going through the passage and showing him his error. I think Josiah, being a Christian, is capable of doing that himself and thus see the error of his narrow sentence capturing in order to create a false doctrine.
If Josiah is not mature enough to do this, he can ask me to slog through each passage and teach him.

 

[Particular]

You ARE denying and "walking away" from SO MANY clear, bold statements of God. It conflicts with the dogma you hold, a dogma invented in the 16th Century (almost universally rejected today) invented by a tiny few radical latter-day Calvinists, a dogma that flat-out contradicts God's Word, a dogma often known as "ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved."

When you quote the Gospel, you accept it - AS IS, AS STATED, fully, without spin. Good for you! Everyone here fully, completely, absolutely, passionately agrees with you! But then you do a 180 when it comes to the Law, you reject it, deny it, repudiate it, insist God just cannot be correct and must be speaking in opposites or just kidding. You don't accept it, you wildly SPIN it so that you insist God "MEANS" the exact opposite of what He clearly, boldly, exactly, repeatedly states. All because these MANY verses just prove your dogma is wrong (as nearly all Calvinists realize)

And you subject SOME Scriptures to the same principle the Devil used in the Garden: attempt to show God is wrong by asking a question. Questions do NOT prove that God is wrong, questions to NOT prove the Law is wrong. A question MIGHT show you don't understand something but it does NOT prove God is lying.







Which you've never even tried to prove. I arbitrarily picked one verse (of many, many, many identical ones) and put it into its context. You could not show that the context proves that God was just kidding and didn't mean what He said. You just ignored the context - entirely.



Stop denying. Read and believe. If it proves that HORRIBLE dogma you embrace, that TERRIFYING dogma invented by a tiny few radical, latter-day Calvinists in the late 16th Century that almost no one accepts, then friend - you have discovered why it's hard to find a Calvinist who holds to this obviously unbiblical teaching. Now, maybe you struggle to know how Law and Gospel interplay on this point (and if so, join the club) but you essentially denying what God says (because you can ask questions - who cares if your point is God is wrong) is not a wise approach. God is bigger than you seem to accept, God is Sovereign as you seem to reject, God is NOT subject to your questions or spins, God does not err. Even if you can ask questions that implies it (just as Satan did in the Garden). Maybe you can step back.... and see a fundamental flaw in Calvinism, and not just on this point.




.

Nope, I am not denying scripture. I am telling you that you are entirely wrong in your assertion regarding those sentences you are find of quoting. I am believing you are mature in Christ so that you will actually read each epistle so that you can see the entire message being shared. Do I give you too much credit?

 

[Josiah]

you are entirely wrong in your assertion

Everyone reading our exchanges KNOWS ....


I've made NO "assertions" whatsoever.

I've offered NO spins to deny what the Bible flat-out, clearly, boldly, repeatedly STATES.

I've just QUOTED, VERBATIM, the words God put in the Bible. Over and over. Repeatedly.

YOU are the one offering wild SPINS, persistently proclaiming that God just cannot mean what He so clearly, so boldly, so often proclaims.

YOU are the one insisting that YOU "out-rank" God and YOU are the one to SPIN God's words so as to insist God "MEANS' the opposite of what He so often, so clearly, so undeniably states.

YOU are the one insisting that if YOU ask a question, this proves God can't mean what what He proclaims.




.

 

[Particular]

Everyone reading our exchanges KNOWS ....


I've made NO "assertions" whatsoever.

I've offered NO spins to deny what the Bible flat-out, clearly, boldly, repeatedly STATES.

I've just QUOTED, VERBATIM, the words God put in the Bible. Over and over. Repeatedly.

YOU are the one offering wild SPINS, persistently proclaiming that God just cannot mean what He so clearly, so boldly, so often proclaims.

YOU are the one insisting that YOU "out-rank" God and YOU are the one to SPIN God's words so as to insist God "MEANS' the opposite of what He so often, so clearly, so undeniably states.

YOU are the one insisting that if YOU ask a question, this proves God can't mean what what He proclaims.




.

Josiah, does Jesus promise still hold true?

 

[Lamb]

Josiah, does Jesus promise still hold true?

Is God's Word about man falling from faith true?

 

[Josiah]

Is God's Word about man falling from faith true?

Lamm...


OBVIOUSLY, undeniably, our Calvinist friend doesn't give a rip what God proclaims.... if it conflicts with a dogma he promotes, then God is simply wrong and he appoints himself to correct God via his radical, wild SPINS to make God MEAN the opposite of what He obviously, clearly, undeniably, repeatedly says. This is what happens when self makes self bigger and smarter than God.... forcing God to submit to self.


Our friend OBVIOUSLY holds that if he can construct a sentence with a question mark at the end, this proves God is wrong. Remember who did the exact same thing in the Garden? Remember who said to Eve, "But is what God said true? Did God really MEAN what He said or the opposite?" Who else said that questions self asks trumps God's words? Copying this approach seems unwise to me.


As I mentioned, our radical Calvinist is RIGHT when he accepts the words God proclaims in the Gospel.... not spinning them so that God "means" the exact opposite of what He states, not subjecting them to his ability to put a question mark at the end of a sentence, not subjecting them to his own brain insisting he is simply smarter than God and God must submit to him and trust in him, insisting he is the corrector of God. But when it comes to any verse that contradicts (almost entirely rejected) inventions of a few radical latter-day Calvinists (like OSAS), he just reverses all this. I think anyone reading our exchange notes this. It's impossible to discuss Scripture with one who insists God must submit to him, who holds that questions trump God. Interesting, Lamm...... we've had TWO radical Calvinists here, MenniSota and now Particular, both persistently illustrate this small, often errant god... this "I'm smarter than God" mentality... this approach Satan used in the Garden of "If I can ask a question, then God is wrong" .... this "I appoint me to correct God" rubric. Same/same with these two radical Calvinists..... it DOES seem to be a characteristic of radical Calvinism.



- Josiah




.

 

[Particular]

Lamm...


OBVIOUSLY, undeniably, our Calvinist friend doesn't give a rip what God proclaims.... if it conflicts with a dogma he promotes, then God is simply wrong and he appoints himself to correct God via his radical, wild SPINS to make God MEAN the opposite of what He obviously, clearly, undeniably, repeatedly says. This is what happens when self makes self bigger and smarter than God.... forcing God to submit to self.


Our friend OBVIOUSLY holds that if he can construct a sentence with a question mark at the end, this proves God is wrong. Remember who did the exact same thing in the Garden? Remember who said to Eve, "But is what God said true? Did God really MEAN what He said or the opposite?" Who else said that questions self asks trumps God's words? Copying this approach seems unwise to me.


As I mentioned, our radical Calvinist is RIGHT when he accepts the words God proclaims in the Gospel.... not spinning them so that God "means" the exact opposite of what He states, not subjecting them to his ability to put a question mark at the end of a sentence, not subjecting them to his own brain insisting he is simply smarter than God and God must submit to him and trust in him, insisting he is the corrector of God. But when it comes to any verse that contradicts (almost entirely rejected) inventions of a few radical latter-day Calvinists (like OSAS), he just reverses all this. I think anyone reading our exchange notes this. It's impossible to discuss Scripture with one who insists God must submit to him, who holds that questions trump God. Interesting, Lamm...... we've had TWO radical Calvinists here, MenniSota and now Particular, both persistently illustrate this small, often errant god... this "I'm smarter than God" mentality... this approach Satan used in the Garden of "If I can ask a question, then God is wrong" .... this "I appoint me to correct God" rubric. Same/same with these two radical Calvinists..... it DOES seem to be a characteristic of radical Calvinism.



- Josiah




.

Lamms assumption is false. God's chosen sheep are never said to fall away. Therefore, the interpretation that you and Lamm have created from a few sentences is false, not God's word.
What you and Lamm refuse to accept is that your interpretation of those sentences is incorrect and thus your conclusion is incorrect.
Since you refuse context and scripture interpreting scripture, you are left with a false assertion that you refuse to release. That's on you and Lamm and nobody else.

Now, Jesus has promised us what he does for his sheep. You can either believe it or not. That to is on you.

 

[Josiah]

Lamms assumption is false.

The ONLY thing Lamm "assumed" is that God is correct. It's the one you have a LOT of trouble with.

God's chosen sheep are never said to fall away

So you claim.... thus your need to repudiate a LOT, a LOT of clear, bold, obvious, verbatim things God repeatedly proclaims. Your assumptions just GOTTA be right cuz you are you, but God's clear, bold, proclaimations just GOTTA be wrong cuz God's not submitting to you.

the interpretation that you and Lamm

Neither of us are "interpreting" ANYTHING. We are just stating the verbatim, literal, clear, bold, often-stated proclaimations of God. Seems to really upset you, No "interpreting" whatsoever, by either of us, by any verse.

YOU are the one appointing you as the SPIN DOCTOR, you are appointing you as the inerrant CORRECTOR OF GOD, you are the one with the rubric that if you can create a sentence with a question mark at the end that to you implies God goofed, then you've proven God goofed and "MEANT" the opposite of what He so often, so clearly, so boldly, so undeniably proclaims

You and a former uber-Calvinist are identical in this extreme "small, errant god" approach, this "I appoint me to correct God" rubric, this "if I can't fit my puny brain around what God says, then the problem has just GOTTA be with God cuz I'm smarter than He." This "cue" you seem to take from Satan in the Garden, as he too used questions to try to SPIN what God has so clearly stated.

Since you refuse context

I gave the context of a verse (chosen at random). You were asked to show WHAT in the context proves that God was just kidding, that God "MEANT" the opposite of what He said, that clearly the opposite is true. You couldn't do it. You would not present the context for ANY of the verses you deny. OBVIOUSLY, your denial has nothing to do with the context of any verse you reject. It has to do with one thing: The Bible clearly, obviously, undeniably proclaims your dogma is false. But to you, the problem cannot be with you, it MUST be with God.

Frankly, you (and that former uber-Calvinist poster) illustrate so well here at CH the fundamental error of radical Calvinism. You both show it SO clearly. Two now.









.

 

[Particular]

The ONLY thing Lamm "assumed" is that God is correct. It's the one you have a LOT of trouble with.





So you claim.... thus your need to repudiate a LOT, a LOT of clear, bold, obvious, verbatim things God repeatedly proclaims. Your assumptions just GOTTA be right cuz you are you, but God's clear, bold, proclaimations just GOTTA be wrong cuz God's not submitting to you.






Neither of us are "interpreting" ANYTHING. We are just stating the verbatim, literal, clear, bold, often-stated proclaimations of God. Seems to really upset you, No "interpreting" whatsoever, by either of us, by any verse.

YOU are the one appointing you as the SPIN DOCTOR, you are appointing you as the inerrant CORRECTOR OF GOD, you are the one with the rubric that if you can create a sentence with a question mark at the end that to you implies God goofed, then you've proven God goofed and "MEANT" the opposite of what He so often, so clearly, so boldly, so undeniably proclaims

You and a former uber-Calvinist are identical in this extreme "small, errant god" approach, this "I appoint me to correct God" rubric, this "if I can't fit my puny brain around what God says, then the problem has just GOTTA be with God cuz I'm smarter than He." This "cue" you seem to take from Satan in the Garden, as he too used questions to try to SPIN what God has so clearly stated.






I gave the context of a verse (chosen at random). You were asked to show WHAT in the context proves that God was just kidding, that God "MEANT" the opposite of what He said, that clearly the opposite is true. You couldn't do it. You would not present the context for ANY of the verses you deny. OBVIOUSLY, your denial has nothing to do with the context of any verse you reject. It has to do with one thing: The Bible clearly, obviously, undeniably proclaims your dogma is false. But to you, the problem cannot be with you, it MUST be with God.





.

You are asserting that your sentence plucking says that God's sheep can forsake God and God will not seek them out and keep them. This is your assertion and therefore your interpretation of the sentences you plucked.
Yet you remain silent in the passages that Jesus speaks to you and you refuse to answer my simple question.

Is what Jesus promises about keeping all that the Father has given him true?

 

[Josiah]

You are asserting

ALL the asserting, ALL the assuming, ALL the spinning ("interpretation") is entirely, wholly, completely on your side.

ALL I've done is quote - verbatim, exactly - what GOD has so often, so boldly, so clearly proclaimed.

Yeah - God doesn't agree with the new, hyper-Calvinist dogma you assert... and your assumption is ergo God must be wrong. Thus your INSISTENCE on you appointing you as the SPIN DOCTOR, the CORRECTOR OF GOD.

This is your assertion

Here's my only assertion. God is right.
And very likely smarter than you, very likely knows more than you about this. Nothing disparaging toward you implied.


I can appreciate that at times it's hard to know how all God says "cranks out" in practice, but here's where you differ with nearly all Christians. When we don't understand something, we assume the problem is with us, not God.


You and another uber-Calvinist formerly active here at CH, each SO WELL illustrate the egoism of your form of Calvinism... the complete lack of humility and submission to God, the disrespect for God's Word, the whole mentality that God is mandated to submit to the "brain" and opinions of self since self is simply smarter and bigger than God (at least in matters of faith). You two WELL illustrate this horrible side of Calvinism. My wife's side is filled with Calvinists (going back nearly 500 years) - Scots, including a great many Reformed ministers. They often speak of the egoism that took over parts of the Reformed faith. I think you two both pretty much turn people off - FAST - and so few read these wiI'ld things you two have conveyed, but those who do can sure see it for themselves.




.

 

[Particular]

ALL the asserting, ALL the assuming, ALL the spinning is entirely, wholly, completely on your side.

ALL I've done is quote - verbatim, exactly - what GOD has so often, so boldly, so clearly proclaimed.

Yeah - God doesn't agree with the new, hyper-Calvinist dogma you assert... and your assumption is ergo God must be wrong. Thus your INSISTENCE on you appointing you as the SPIN DOCTOR, the CORRECTOR OF GOD.






Here's my only assertion. God is right. And very likely smarter than you, very likely knows more than you about this. Nothing disparaging toward you implied.

I can appreciate that at times it's hard to know how all God says "cranks out" in practice, but here's where you differ with nearly all Christians. When we don't understand something, we assume the problem is with us, not God.

You and another uber-Calvinist formerly active here at CH, each SO WELL illustrate the egoism of your form of Calvinism... the complete lack of humility and submission to God, the disrespect for God's Word, the whole mentality that God is mandated to submit to the "brain" and opinions of self since self is simply smarter and bigger than God (at least in matters of faith). You two WELL illustrate this horrible side of Calvinism. My wife's side is filled with Calvinists (going back nearly 500 years) - Scots, including a great many Reformed ministers. They often speak of the egoism that took over parts of the Reformed faith. I think you two both pretty much turn people off - FAST - and so few read these wiI'ld things you two have conveyed, but those who do can sure see it for themselves.




.

God is right, which means Jesus promises are true, which also means your assertions about falling away are wrong and your interpretation of the sentences you posted is wrong.

 

[atpollard]

So you claim.... thus your need to repudiate a LOT, a LOT of clear, bold, obvious, verbatim things God repeatedly proclaims. Your assumptions just GOTTA be right cuz you are you, but God's clear, bold, proclaimations just GOTTA be wrong cuz God's not submitting to you.

That would have been more effective (speaking from an evaluation of ‘rhetoric’ ) if you had included one or two illustrative examples of such verses to support your argument. Powerful emotional appeals (pathos) without any supporting “logic“ (Logos) comes across as a diatribe.

 

[atpollard]

Particular, you still haven't addressed what was stated within the verses and instead you are saying that they are out of context and misunderstood and that's not factual. The verses do not discount God's promises so you can stop shoving that line repeatedly. The verses state what happens when man throws out faith that God has given to him. Reflect on that and you'll see that the verses hold to be true...because there are plenty of them within scripture.

Respectfully, you are also not addressing the scriptural PROMISES that Particular has presented. Instead, you merely respond by telling him that he is wrong to believe the promise, but you are correct to believe the promises are ... let us say “CONDITIONAL” rather than “false” (even though the extensive paragraphs quoted seem to list no conditions).

Particular really did a good job of defending his position on 1 Timothy. Even if I disagreed, which in this case I do not, I would still acknowledge that he HAS “rightly handled the word of God”. Even as I admire the writings of John Wesley with whom I do disagree on his conclusions. To just shrug off his response with “what about all of the other verses plucked out of context” without even attempting to address why 1 Timothy is speaking about those saved by grace (the gift of God) thwarting the predestined calling, justification and glorification of God seems a dishonest discussion style.

 

[Josiah]

That would have been more effective (speaking from an evaluation of ‘rhetoric’ ) if you had included one or two illustrative examples of such verses to support your argument.

Done. Repeatedly. See post 151 (and perhaps also 160 and 163). I've simply been told these verses cannot "MEAN" what they state

I have no argument. I have simply quoted - verbatim - what God clearly and boldly STATES. No spin. No argument. No doubt. No denial. No repudiation. No subjecting to some terrible dogma invented by a tiny number of radical Calvinists almost 500 years ago. All that is found on the part of those who seem very, very disturbed by what God states.




.




.

 

[Particular]

Done. Repeatedly. See post 151 (and perhaps also 160 and 163). I've simply been told these verses cannot "MEAN" what they state

I have no argument. I have simply quoted - verbatim - what God clearly and boldly STATES. No spin. No argument. No doubt. No denial. No repudiation. No subjecting to some terrible dogma invented by a tiny number of radical Calvinists almost 500 years ago. All that is found on the part of those who seem very, very disturbed by what God states.




.




.

Josiah, you quote scripture in the same way a Muslim quotes scripture. Just share a sentence, out of context, and ignore how it distorts what God is saying. Then, claim ignorance and that you haven't done anything but quote a verse.

Yours is a cop-out that leaves a person to create their theology from a sentence rather than from the fullness and richness of God's entire written word.

I have provided passages, in context, that you ignore. I have explained 1 Timothy to you so you can see the distortion of your one sentence quote. To all this, you just cop-out and re-paste the individual sentences, with zero context.

Such method of argument is empty of legitimacy and thus you have failed to make your case.

 

[Josiah]

Particular

Josiah, you quote scripture in the same way a Muslim quotes scripture. Just share a sentence, out of context, and ignore how it distorts what God is saying.

I picked a verse randomly.... gave a great many verses before and after to give the context... and asked you how the context shows that God was speaking in opposites, that He could not "mean" what He clearly said, how His words must be spun 180 degrees so as to fit the context. You just ignored it.

When you quote a Scripture, you don't insist, "the words before and after this prove the words I'm quoting mean the opposite of what they mean." You just quote the words. But when anyone else quotes a Scripture, well..... Hum. Seems you agree with God when He states what you think, but....?

you haven't done anything but quote a verse.

.... well, MANY verses.

Yup, verbatim. No spins. No denials. No doubting. No "God can't be right about that." No, "but that proves a dogma invented by a tiny few radical Calvinists over 400 years ago isn't so."


Correct, I haven't done anything to any verse. That's your thing.

I have provided passages, in context, that you ignore.

Wrong.

I have fully, completely, absolutely accepted EVERY SINGLE WORD (verbatim) that you have quoted from Scripture on this. Every one. With no spinning, no denying, no doubting, no insistence that God can't be right. All that is what YOU have done with the (many more) Scriptures I have quoted.




A blessed Holy Week to you and yours...



Josiah




.

 

[Particular]

Particular





I picked a verse randomly.... gave a great many verses before and after to give the context... and asked you how the context shows that God was speaking in opposites, that He could not "mean" what He clearly said, how His words must be spun 180 degrees so as to fit the context. You just ignored it.

When you quote a Scripture, you don't insist, "the words before and after this prove the words I'm quoting mean the opposite of what they mean." You just quote the words. But when anyone else quotes a Scripture, well..... Hum. Seems you agree with God when He states what you think, but....?







.... well, MANY verses.

Yup, verbatim. No spins. No denials. No doubting. No "God can't be right about that." No, "but that proves a dogma invented by a tiny few radical Calvinists over 400 years ago isn't so."


Correct, I haven't done anything to any verse. That's your thing.







Wrong.

I have fully, completely, absolutely accepted EVERY SINGLE WORD (verbatim) that you have quoted from Scripture on this. Every one. With no spinning, no denying, no doubting, no insistence that God can't be right. All that is what YOU have done with the (many more) Scriptures I have quoted.




A blessed Holy Week to you and yours...



Josiah




.

Josiah, Muslims, Jehovah's Witness and Mormons do what you have done. Are they all correct in their claims?

You are copping out on your responsibility to rightly divide the word of God. You can hide behind your tactics, but any thinking person will observe what you are doing. At this point I view you as simply sticking your feet in the sand and refusing to teach us.

Keep posting like the religious groups I cited if that is all you can do. Just don't expect that you have a legitimate argument.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, Muslims, Jehovah's Witness and Mormons do what you have done. Are they all correct in their claims?

See post 176.


I have done nothing. Just quoted God verbatim. I've done nothing to them,.

The only claim I've made is that God is likely correct.

You are the one who DOES amazing things to God's words (only the ones you think are wrong) - radically spinning them so that you yourself claim God must "MEAN" the exact opposite of what He so clearly, so boldly, so often, verbatim states (because God's words don't agree with yours).

You seem to have this rubric: Take what God says.... appoint yourself to ask questions that imply God is stating a falsehood, an untruth... and then appoint self as the one to correct God. Does this remind you one who did this in the Garden, to Eve?


A blessed Holy Week to you and yours...


Josiah



.

 

[Particular]

See post 176.


I have done nothing. Just quoted God verbatim. I've done nothing to them,.

The only claim I've made is that God is likely correct.

You are the one who DOES amazing things to God's words (only the ones you think are wrong) - radically spinning them so that you yourself claim God must "MEAN" the exact opposite of what He so clearly, so boldly, so often, verbatim states (because God's words don't agree with yours).

You seem to have this rubric: Take what God says.... appoint yourself to ask questions that imply God is stating a falsehood, an untruth... and then appoint self as the one to correct God. Does this remind you one who did this in the Garden, to Eve?


A blessed Holy Week to you and yours...


Josiah



.

Josiah, I have seen all your posts. See all of mine and either exposite the text or accept that you have done nothing to legitimize your position.

You are arguing like a Muslim would argue. That should be a red flag to your methodology.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, I have seen all your posts. See all of mine and either exposite the text or accept that you have done nothing to legitimize your position.

My position is this: God is probably correct.

I have no argument and no position other than that.

I (and others) have quoted - accurately and verbatim - EXACTLY what God has stated. What God has stated clearly, boldly and repeatedly.

It seems to bother you greatly.

Because what God states obviously, undeniably, flat out contradicts you, you conclude that you MUST do something VERY radical with God's words ... YOU are thus mandated to SPIN them.... radically..... in ways no one before the late 16th Century ever did and 99% of Christians stll don't .... SPIN them so radically as to demand that God actually "MEANS" is the exact opposite of what He so clearly, so boldly, so very often has verbatim STATED. 180 degrees.

It seems to bother you greatly that I won't join you in what you feel you've just gotta DO to God and His Word.


You are simply doing what the devil did in the Garden.... allowing a quote of God's Word but then appointing yourself to ask questions about it that imply God is wrong, then insisting His words must be twisted and spun 180 degrees to make God right. I'm not going to bite.


See post 166.



A blessed Holy Week to you and yours...


Josiah





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