Particular
Part of your problem is that you constantly try to derail things by bringing up absurd things no one is saying.... while just ignoring what IS being said. Do you do this to frustrate others into silence, to eliminate any conversation? Because it's hard for you to stay on topic? I don't know, only that it seems to be a pattern with you.
Friend, there is no
Catholic participating in this thread... and this thread is not specifically about the RCC invention of Transubstantiation, a view NO ONE HERE is promoting.
Those of us that stand with the view of Chrsitianity for 1500 + years.... who stand with what Jesus and Paul actually said (rather than the opposite) have all answered that we don't know the HOW and present no theories about that.
The East has BY TRADITION (not dogma) holds that some mysterious "change" happens even in terms of the elements - but they leave the HOW entirely, completely alone. It's a miracle and God does miracles as He does them, He is not limited to physics or to your brain's understanding of what's possible and impossible for Him.
Lutheranism tends to view that there
is change (again, by divine miracle!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but Lutheranism tends to see this in what is present - it is now a Sacrament and Christ is present. Since we can't find the words "change" "turn' "was" "become" "transform" etc. in any of the eucharistic texts, we don't form any dogma dependent upon such entirely missing words. We just stand with the word that is so consistently used: IS. The word has to do with reality, existence, presence. If I say, "My wife is here" that does not mean that a bunny entered the room but the bunny changed into a woman, it means my wife is here. Some seem to want to make this very complicated - even if that requires adding things entirely missing or (like you) deleting what Scripture states and replacing it with the opposite in order to make what Jesus said correct and possible).
Second, the Holy Spirit is in no way limited
"CAN'T" is YOUR insistence. You are the one going on and on in various threads about what God cannot do, what the Holy Spirit cannot use. You are the one whose theology seems to be based on divine limits - what God can and cannot do.,
because He doesn't turn bread into human flesh or wine into human blood. However, humans demanding that the Spirit do such a thing reveals their control issues.
No one demands anything. Some however believe God.
You are the one who keeps trying to control God, control Jesus, tell Him what is and is not possible, what God can and cannot do, what the Holy Spirit can and cannot use for His purposes.... The CONTROL and LIMIT issues are all yours..... no one on this side desires to control or limited God at all, no one on this side is telling Jesus "but that cannot be true!" No one on this said is telling the Holy Spirit, "but You cannot use any means for your purpose!" No one on this side is telling God "But You can't perform that miracle!" No one on this side is saying, "If my brain cannot understand how that can be, then God can't be believed to do it!"
Josiah said:
1 Corinthians 11:27-30 makes ZERO sense if Jesus and Paul were only using some symbol.... the CONTEXT too makes the "just a symbol" invention impossible.
"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died."
Are these mandates and warnings found regarding foot washing or the Passover Meal or even circumcision? Are warnings and things like this mention about ANY mere symbol? Or about the Nike swoosh or the Mercedes Benz star? And why this huge issue of "discerning" the Body if there's no Body to discern?
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