Does "For Ever" mean forever?

[Lamb]

I see you aren't going to answer what I've been asking.

 

[atpollard]

The wicked perish

“Perish” is not “eternal punishment” as a direct contrast to “eternal life” in the same sentence. The opposite of punishment is reward. The opposite of life is death. Jesus did not contrast “eternal life” with “death” (perish), Jesus contrasted it with “eternal punishment“ ... as in

• [Mar 9:47-48 KJV] 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
• [Mat 13:42, 50 KJV] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ... 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[tango]

OP - you've used an awful lot of words to note little more than that the same term may have different meanings based on context, and then done little more than assume one context applies elsewhere.

Yesterday I went for a walk along the river bank.
Tomorrow I'm going to the bank to get some money out.

Conclusion - money comes from the river. Right?

 

[hobie]

“Perish” is not “eternal punishment” as a direct contrast to “eternal life” in the same sentence. The opposite of punishment is reward. The opposite of life is death. Jesus did not contrast “eternal life” with “death” (perish), Jesus contrasted it with “eternal punishment“ ... as in

• [Mar 9:47-48 KJV] 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
• [Mat 13:42, 50 KJV] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ... 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So if you cease to exist, is that "eternal"?

 

[hobie]

Here is a more thorough explanation...
"The Bible is very clear that the wicked do Not suffer for ever and ever and ever. In the Bible we repeatedly see that the wicked are destroyed. They will perish, they will be burned up until they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, they will be no more, they will cease to exist, etc. look at the Biblical texts below:

1. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

One of my favorite Bible texts about the love of God. Nowhere in that text do we have the idea that the alternatives are to live forever in Heaven or to live forever in Hell. No, the real alternatives are to perish or to have eternal, everlasting life.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The consequence for sin is death, not burning forever. God's gift is eternal life, which is very different from the penalty of sin.

As we look at more verses, we can see that the Bible is consistent with itself.

1. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
2. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
3. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
4. But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20.
5. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20, 38.

The wicked will be no more, they will cease to exist, they will perish, they will vanish away. In fact, verse 38 says they will all be destroyed together, in one place, at one time; But the meek, those who wait on the LORD, will inherit the earth and live forever.

1. As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2.

Again, the wicked will perish like smoke in the presence of God. In the fire they will not burn forever, Instead, they will perish like wax in the fire. This fire is in the presence of God.

1. May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.

The wicked will be consumed from the earth and be no more. There will be nothing left of the wicked.

1. For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, Says the LORD of hosts, That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3.

Malachi makes it extremely clear. The wicked will be stubble. They will be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. In addition we see again that it will happen all at once: Because the Lord says that the day is coming when the wicked will be burnt up, they will be stubble. And we find that this burning has an end because later on God promises that we will trample the wicked since they will be ashes under our feet. He will not keep them burning forever, but He will finish this work. God will burn them up.

1. Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Isaiah 47:14.

Isaiah also says the wicked will be stubble. In addition, he says that they will not be able to escape from the fire and the fire will do its job. When it is finished burning, their will not even be a coal or a fire to be warmed up with. The wicked will be entirely consumed by the fire! They will be burned up. So the ashes will be cold for there will not be a fire to sit next to, nor even a warm coal.

1. The LORD preserves all who love Hims, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20.

All the wicked will be destroyed. They will not survive.

1. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Psalm 21:9.

The fire will devour them and they will be no more.

1. Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
2. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:4, 20.

God owns all souls, so He has the right to do what He wants with His people. He has declared that the soul who sins, that person will die, and it will be as though they had never been.

1. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
2. For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16....http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm

 

[tango]

Another wall of words that says little other than that the same word can mean different things and assuming, based on nothing readily apparent, which meaning applies to any situation.

Maybe the land right beside the river will yet yield me some money. You never know.

 

[atpollard]

Here is a more thorough explanation...
"The Bible is very clear that the wicked do Not suffer for ever and ever and ever. In the Bible we repeatedly see that the wicked are destroyed. They will perish, they will be burned up until they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, they will be no more, they will cease to exist, etc. look at the Biblical texts below:

1. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

One of my favorite Bible texts about the love of God. Nowhere in that text do we have the idea that the alternatives are to live forever in Heaven or to live forever in Hell. No, the real alternatives are to perish or to have eternal, everlasting life.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The consequence for sin is death, not burning forever. God's gift is eternal life, which is very different from the penalty of sin.

As we look at more verses, we can see that the Bible is consistent with itself.

1. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
2. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
3. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
4. But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20.
5. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20, 38.

The wicked will be no more, they will cease to exist, they will perish, they will vanish away. In fact, verse 38 says they will all be destroyed together, in one place, at one time; But the meek, those who wait on the LORD, will inherit the earth and live forever.

1. As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2.

Again, the wicked will perish like smoke in the presence of God. In the fire they will not burn forever, Instead, they will perish like wax in the fire. This fire is in the presence of God.

1. May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.

The wicked will be consumed from the earth and be no more. There will be nothing left of the wicked.

1. For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, Says the LORD of hosts, That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3.

Malachi makes it extremely clear. The wicked will be stubble. They will be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. In addition we see again that it will happen all at once: Because the Lord says that the day is coming when the wicked will be burnt up, they will be stubble. And we find that this burning has an end because later on God promises that we will trample the wicked since they will be ashes under our feet. He will not keep them burning forever, but He will finish this work. God will burn them up.

1. Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Isaiah 47:14.

Isaiah also says the wicked will be stubble. In addition, he says that they will not be able to escape from the fire and the fire will do its job. When it is finished burning, their will not even be a coal or a fire to be warmed up with. The wicked will be entirely consumed by the fire! They will be burned up. So the ashes will be cold for there will not be a fire to sit next to, nor even a warm coal.

1. The LORD preserves all who love Hims, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20.

All the wicked will be destroyed. They will not survive.

1. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Psalm 21:9.

The fire will devour them and they will be no more.

1. Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
2. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:4, 20.

God owns all souls, so He has the right to do what He wants with His people. He has declared that the soul who sins, that person will die, and it will be as though they had never been.

1. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
2. For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16....http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/hell.htm

That was as fine a job of plucking verses out of context and making them say what you want, as I have ever seen. Joel Osteen would be proud of you.

 

[tango]

That was as fine a job of plucking verses out of context and making them say what you want, as I have ever seen. Joe Olsteen would be proud of you.

The use of John 3:16 to draw conclusions from silence was a masterstroke. Given John 3:16 doesn't explicitly state that the alternative to everlasting life isn't being painted bright orange, strapped into a rubber chair and spending the rest of eternity being rained upon by variously displeasing shades of luminescent gunge, let's go with that as the preferred option.

 

[hobie]

That was as fine a job of plucking verses out of context and making them say what you want, as I have ever seen. Joel Osteen would be proud of you.

Its scripture not verses out of context, here is another study to go over...
"Now, I would like to address the question of an eternally burning Hell from several different perspectives altogether. Please consider the following eight points:

1. Eternal Life: The reward that will be bestowed upon the saints at the last day is eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day [and give him eternal life]." (John 6:40, insertion mine)

Here is the problem: A person cannot writhe in Hell throughout eternity without first receiving eternal life. In other words, a wicked person has to receive eternal life so that he can be tortured for eternity. The Bible teaches the wicked will not receive eternal life. In fact, the Bible teaches that the wicked will perish cease to exist. (See John 3:16 above.)

2. The Penalty for Sin: Most Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. (2 Cor 5:21) This problem is a simple one: If the penalty for sin is burning in Hell throughout eternity, then Jesus did not pay the price for sin. Period. Even if you say that Jesus was tortured in Hell for three days and three nights, three days in Hell is not the penalty for sin! Even after billions and billions of years, eternity has just begun!

To pay for our sins, the penalty for sin had to be imposed upon Jesus and it was. The penalty for sin is "death by execution without hope of resurrection." Consider the first recorded command given to Adam: "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day [whether it be a Tuesday or a Friday] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [be executed]." (KJV, Gen 2:16,17, insertions mine) Adam and Eve were to be put to death on the very day they sinned, but Jesus, seeing that they did not sin defiantly, chose to become man's intercessor instead of man's executioner.

3. Two Resurrections: Let us assume for a moment that a wicked person does go to Hell at the time of death. Then, try to explain why the wicked are then resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years? What is the point of resurrecting Cain (the first murderer) if he has been burning in Hell for the past 6,000 years?

Even more, what would be the point of resurrecting Abel if he has been sitting at Jesus' side for the past 6,000 years? The doctrine of two resurrections is in direct conflict with the doctrine of an eternally burning hell. – The Bible teaches the first resurrection occurs at the Second Coming for the righteous dead (1 Thess 4:15-18, Rev 20:6) and the second resurrection occurs at the end of the 1,000 years. (Rev 20:5) The second resurrection is for the wicked of all ages.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (KJV, John 5:28,29)

4. Immediate Judgment at Death: The Bible states that everyone will stand before "the Judgment Bar of Christ." (2 Cor 5:10) If a person goes to Heaven or Hell at the time of death, this presumes that "the Judgment Bar of Christ" has been in session ever since Abel was killed. The problem is that "the Judgment Bar of Christ" has a beginning point in time and an ending point in time. The apocalyptic books of Daniel and Revelation tell us the Judgment Bar of Christ began in 1844 and closes during the Great Tribulation, at the end of the 1,260 days allotted to the Two Witnesses, just before the seventh trumpet sounds.

No one can be judged by Christ until His Judgment Bar is "set up." For reasons beyond the scope of this response, Jesus was found worthy to ascend Heaven's throne in 1798 and Jesus began reviewing the books of record in 1844. (Ecc 12:13,14, Dan 7:10) So, Bible prophecy indicates that immediate judgment at death is not possible. (Note: God the Father has made a few "executive" exceptions to the Judgment Bar of Christ. Enoch, Elijah and the 24 elders were taken to Heaven prior to 1844. These exceptions are justified on the basis that the Father foreknew this was the best way of resolving issues that are not part of this discussion.)

5. First Heaven and Earth Passed Away: The Bible teaches that God will create a New Heaven and New Earth after the old Heaven and Earth are destroyed. "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. . . ." (Rev 21:1) This verse means that Hell itself has to pass away. Hell is the means through which Earth will be purified of sin! Sin and sinners will have no place on Earth, in Earth or under the Earth when everything is made new. God's universe will be clean of sin and sinners.

6. Reigning with Christ: If there is an eternally burning Hell, what judgment is left for the saints to conduct during the 1,000 years? "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world . . .? Do you not know that we will judge angels . . .?" (1 Cor 6:2,3) Think about this: If all of the wicked receive the same sentence burning in Hell for eternity, then there is nothing left for the saints to judge during the 1,000 years!

7. Walking on the Ashes of the Wicked: The Bible declares the wicked will be devoured – destroyed – annihilated – turned into ashes. " Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things, says the Lord Almighty." (Mal 4:3)

Christians mess the doctrine of Hell up today largely because people do not understand the doctrines of restitution, God's vengeance, soul sleep, the Second Death or the Judgment Bar of Christ. I understand how people conclude that the wicked will burn in Hell forever. Language in the Bible seems to support the idea of eternal suffering in Hell until you put everything the Bible has to say about Hell on the table. Then, and only then, can we understand the truth on this topic. The Bible is like a giant crossword puzzle. When all of its doctrines are properly defined and understood, all of the pieces will harmoniously form one beautiful mosaic.

8. Golden Rule: The final reason why Hell cannot burn for eternity is that God's own law, the Golden Rule, does not permit God to punish wicked people beyond the point of achieving restitution. Period. God abides by His own laws. He has proven His submission to His own laws by the death of Jesus!"...https://wake-up.org/hell/sinners-burn-hell-eternity.html

 

[tango]

Your first point fails so badly I didn't even bother reading the rest in detail. Your assertion about John 3:16 falls flat because you're making assumptions from silence.

The claim that all who believe in Jesus shall have everlasting life doesn't say that those who do not believe will cease to exist. It doesn't mention those who do not believe so to draw conclusions is to assume. To build on an assumption is not a good way to make a solid argument.

For good measure you don't even seem to grasp the context that taking verses in Scripture out of context doesn't yield useful results. But hey, if you don't like that idea then pull Job 22:28 out of context and speak whatever reality you want into existence. It makes about as much sense as some of your other musings.

 

[atpollard]

[Psa 81:15 NASB] 15 "Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him, And their time [of punishment] would be forever.

[Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

[Luk 16:23-24 NASB] 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

[Psa 81:15 NASB] 15 "Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him, And their time [of punishment] would be forever.

[Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

[Luk 16:23-24 NASB] 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Apparently ( according to God's Word, also known as the Bible), forever means forever. Thanks for straightening that out, @atpollard ! I am sure that the Book of Concord offers several excellent explanations regarding Original Sin, Justification and related matters, that are based right out of the Holy Scriptures themselves. http://bookofconcord.org/defense_2_originalsin.php, http://bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php, http://bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#sin, http://bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#repentance, http://bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#XI. Election. I would certainly encourage a reading of these links for Christian edification.

 

[hobie]

I see you aren't going to answer what I've been asking.

The answer is there, but as the old saying goes, 'a man convinced against his will...'. Everyone must study the scriptures and see and hear what it says on this issue, as its not a easy one.

 

[hobie]

[Psa 81:15 NASB] 15 "Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him, And their time [of punishment] would be forever.

[Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

[Luk 16:23-24 NASB] 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

So is Sodom and Gomorrah burning to this day, no of course not, they suffered the punishment of the eternal fire.

Genesis 19:24
Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and firefrom the Lord out of heaven;


Amos 4:11
I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.


Luke 17:29
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fireand brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.


Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Lamb]

The answer is there, but as the old saying goes, 'a man convinced against his will...'. Everyone must study the scriptures and see and hear what it says on this issue, as its not a easy one.

I have studied the scriptures. And no, you did not answer what I asked but avoided the part that I was pointing out to you.

 

[tango]

The answer is there, but as the old saying goes, 'a man convinced against his will...'. Everyone must study the scriptures and see and hear what it says on this issue, as its not a easy one.

Ah yes, the classic copout, expecting others to research the point you're failing to make.

Your "reasoning" process (I use the term loosely) appears to do little more than make a claim that sometimes the term "forever" is metaphorical, therefore you can figure it's metaphorical anywhere else you might like it to be metaphorical. It really is like mixing and matching a term like "bank" to conclude that if you try hard enough you really can go down to the river to get your money out.

 

[hobie]

Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

If Jesus didn't mean eternal punishment then neither did He mean eternal life? Of course He meant eternal life for those who trust in Him....so the same goes for those who reject Him which is eternal punishment.

They are separated from God, they perish, cease to exist for eternity, verses the righteous who are taken to be with God in His kingdom for eternity...need to look to see what scripture shows over and over...

 

[Lamb]

They are separated from God, they perish, cease to exist for eternity, verses the righteous who are taken to be with God in His kingdom for eternity...need to look to see what scripture shows over and over...

So using eternity in a sentence can carry two different meanings according to you?

 

[tango]

They are separated from God, they perish, cease to exist for eternity, verses the righteous who are taken to be with God in His kingdom for eternity...need to look to see what scripture shows over and over...

You really can't keep falling back on your incessant claim that "scripture shows (something) over and over" if you can't come up with a concise answer as to why you think "eternal life" means eternal but "eternal punishment" doesn't mean eternal.

If it really is as simple as you say it is then surely you can explain it without resorting to huge walls of words and without resorting to filling in silence with whatever suits the argument you're trying to make. You know, like you tried to do with John 3:16 earlier.

 

[hobie]

So using eternity in a sentence can carry two different meanings according to you?

We see it in many instances, so its not just to me. The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out as I showed is the same expression used in Jude concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha:
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

In this use for the fire of "eternal" "everlasting" many doing just a superficial reading are applying modern definitions without reference to their ancient contextual usage and violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation;

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. So what example is it of.

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.