Where is the Pentecostal prefix?

[Biblicist]

I noticed that there is no Pentecostal (or Charismatic) prefix, how come?

 

[Romanos]

There was a Charismatic Only prefix to start off, but a suggestion came in to change it to Evangelical Only to narrow down the discussion. That said for those who are Charismatic/Evangelical, what are your current thoughts on the current prefix by Evangelical Only?

 

[Alithis]

im fine with"Evangelical only ": as dividing it further into charismatic/Pentecostal/baptist/ vineyard/ acts /active and about 100 other new titled denominations which are all essentially Evangelical in nature .would indeed ,only narrow the scope of reply and discussion ... that my 2 cents

 

[Biblicist]

That's very interesting indeed!

The problem with the 'Evangelical' descriptor is that this can also refer to those who are cessationists, after all, even John MacArthur is an Evangelical but as he is also a hard-core cessationist. Over the years the term Evangelical has morphed into many different creatures where all Pentecostals (but not all charismatics) are Evangelical but not all Evangelicals are Pentecostal, though there are many millions of Evangelicals who are charismatics.

The terms Pentecostal and charismatic has had a complicated history. With its original and primary application, the term Charismatic referrs to those Believers and congregations who have adopted what is called the Full Gospel where their denominations and congregations (i.e., AoG) were established from the beginning on Pentecostal or Full Gospel theology.

Charismatics are very similar to Pentecostals but they have remained within churches or denominations that were founded on older theological positions, i.e., Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists & Roman Catholics. So someone can be a member of a centuries old Baptist congregation/denomination, but at the same time they may have adopted a lot of Pentecostal theology where they also speak in tongues. Even though the Baptist Charismatic is also an Evangelical, those who are Roman Catholic charismatics would in all probability not appreciate being referred to as Evangelicals.

In more recent years our populist material often uses the term Charismatic to refer to both Pentecostals and charismatics but this is also a problem as many (probably most) charismatics will reject the original or classic-Pentecostal doctrine that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is subsequent to our Salvation experience where we are supposedly first 'sealed' in the Spirit.

Even though you have a 'wof' tag, as the wof movement is not so much a theological domain, but more a set of views that various populist celebrities promote, then this descriptor should definitely remain for those who lean toward wof distinctives. Even a charismatic tag would help as this would allow for a wide range of views as many even oddly consider someone's music ability as being a "Gift of the Spirit". But for those who closely connect our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) with the reception of the Holy Spirit then a Pentecostal tag would certainly be beneficial. Most importantly the Pentecostal tag would need to be for Trinitarians only!

A seperate tag for the Roman Catholic Charismatics could maybe be a possibility but this tag on another major Christian forum has essentially died.

• Pentecostal (Trinitarian)
• Charismatic
• Word of Faith
• Catholic Charismatics

Edit: Most charismatics do not agree with the distinctive postions of the classic-Pentecostal denominations such as the AoG.

 

[Alithis]

That's very interesting indeed!

The problem with the 'Evangelical' descriptor is that this can also refer to those who are cessationists, after all, even John MacArthur is an Evangelical but as he is also a hard-core cessationist. Over the years the term Evangelical has morphed into many different creatures where all Pentecostals (but not all charismatics) are Evangelical but not all Evangelicals are Pentecostal, though there are many millions of Evangelicals who are charismatics.

The terms Pentecostal and charismatic has had a complicated history. With its original and primary application, the term Charismatic referrs to those Believers and congregations who have adopted what is called the Full Gospel where their denominations and congregations (i.e., AoG) were established from the beginning on Pentecostal or Full Gospel theology.

Charismatics are very similar to Pentecostals but they have remained within churches or denominations that were founded on older theological positions, i.e., Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists & Roman Catholics. So someone can be a member of a centuries old Baptist congregation/denomination, but at the same time they may have adopted a lot of Pentecostal theology where they also speak in tongues. Even though the Baptist Charismatic is also an Evangelical, those who are Roman Catholic charismatics would in all probability not appreciate being referred to as Evangelicals.

In more recent years our populist material often uses the term Charismatic to refer to both Pentecostals and charismatics but this is also a problem as many (probably most) charismatics will reject the original or classic-Pentecostal doctrine that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is subsequent to our Salvation experience where we are supposedly first 'sealed' in the Spirit.

Even though you have a 'wof' tag, as the wof movement is not so much a theological domain, but more a set of views that various populist celebrities promote, then this descriptor should definitely remain for those who lean toward wof distinctives. Even a charismatic tag would help as this would allow for a wide range of views as many even oddly consider someone's music ability as being a "Gift of the Spirit". But for those who closely connect our ability to pray in the Spirit (tongues) with the reception of the Holy Spirit then a Pentecostal tag would certainly be beneficial. Most importantly the Pentecostal tag would need to be for Trinitarians only!

A seperate tag for the Roman Catholic Charismatics could maybe be a possibility but this tag on another major Christian forum has essentially died.

• Pentecostal (Trinitarian)
• Charismatic
• Word of Faith
• Catholic Charismatics

Edit: Most charismatics do not agree with the distinctive postions of the classic-Pentecostal denominations such as the AoG.

yes .. im aware that it allows discussion between a great variation of groups and doctrinal perceptions .
but personally feel it is better then closing the door on discussion altogether .
while at times im fully aware that some doors were closed for a good reason (being if the teachings are apostasy) and should remain closed to those that refuse to repent of such apostasy (albeit open if and when they do repent )

 

[Biblicist]

im fine with"Evangelical only ": as dividing it further into charismatic/Pentecostal/baptist/ vineyard/ acts /active and about 100 other new titled denominations which are all essentially Evangelical in nature .would indeed ,only narrow the scope of reply and discussion ... that my 2 cents

Don't forget, there are millions of Pentecostals out there, which means that Christianityhaven could possibly tap into a huge market.

 

[Alithis]

oh hey bro.. i see more and more the need for a defining which ends all definition..

it would look something like this
those who are followers of the lord Jesus .. will not bow and take the mark of the beast or listen to or be fooled by his false prophet no mater what signs and wonders he displays

and those that are apostate -will bow and take the mark of the beast and listen to his false prophet . the end of denominational differences and the schism to end all schisms .

 

[Biblicist]

yes .. im aware that it allows discussion between a great variation of groups and doctrinal perceptions .
but personally feel it is better then closing the door on discussion altogether .
while at times im fully aware that some doors were closed for a good reason (being if the teachings are apostasy) and should remain closed to those that refuse to repent of such apostasy (albeit open if and when they do repent )

The problem with the 'other' Christian website is that it does not have a Pentecostal forum which means that you have to post into the charismatic forum were all the wannabe 'charismatics' who think that their 'gift of origamy' or ' candlestick making' makes them to be experts on things that they have absolutely no knowledge about.

There are times when Pentecostals will want to discuss Pentecostal theology with other Pentecostals, but there will also be those times where we are more than content to discuss theology with charismatics and even Evangelicals as well; so to have both both a Pentecostal and a charismatic thread could possibly encourage others to participate on this website if there is a flexibility of choosing where we want to post; afterall, to deny the many millions of Penecostals a place where they can easily share their views is in my view not a prudent business decision.

 

[Biblicist]

oh hey bro.. i see more and more the need for a defining which ends all definition..

it would look something like this
those who are followers of the lord Jesus .. will not bow and take the mark of the beast or listen to or be fooled by his false prophet no mater what signs and wonders he displays

and those that are apostate -will bow and take the mark of the beast and listen to his false prophet . the end of denominational differences and the schism to end all schisms .

That would require another tag called "Eschatology" (or Futureology)!

 

[Alithis]

haha you do like your "tags " .in the end only-one tag will matter ,, the mark of the beats which we refuse or the mark of the seal of God upon the believers .. the later which is the obedience to the baptism of the Holy Ghost .

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have no wish to intrude but I've never thought of Pentecostals as necessarily Evangelical nor of Evangelicals as necessarily Pentecostal. Why not have "Continuationist only" and "Cessationist only" since that appears to be a "great divide" within the ranks of Christians but neither category would exclude Catholic Christians since there are Catholics who believe and teach the continuation of the various gifts and there are Catholic Christians who do not, or who limit the continuation to saints and shrines but do not like or promote speaking in tongues and similar phenomena.

 

[tango]

I have no wish to intrude but I've never thought of Pentecostals as necessarily Evangelical nor of Evangelicals as necessarily Pentecostal. Why not have "Continuationist only" and "Cessationist only" since that appears to be a "great divide" within the ranks of Christians but neither category would exclude Catholic Christians since there are Catholics who believe and teach the continuation of the various gifts and there are Catholic Christians who do not, or who limit the continuation to saints and shrines but do not like or promote speaking in tongues and similar phenomena.

That's an interesting thought, and it would mean that those who believe one way could, if they wanted, exclude those who believe the other way but without having endless divides between charismatic/pentecostal and all the potential assorted subdivisions.

 

[Alithis]

it mater snot ones stances .. it is ones willingness to be obedient to the lord Jesus and cast off teaching that are plainly not of him ...

hold to what denomination you wish .. but follow its apostasy imposed over the word of God and there can be no fellowship .

 

[MoreCoffee]

it mater snot ones stances .. it is ones willingness to be obedient to the lord Jesus and cast off teaching that are plainly not of him ...

hold to what denomination you wish .. but follow its apostasy imposed over the word of God and there can be no fellowship .

I have no idea what the above is intended to mean.

 

[Hebrews 11]

I have no wish to intrude but I've never thought of Pentecostals as necessarily Evangelical nor of Evangelicals as necessarily Pentecostal. Why not have "Continuationist only" and "Cessationist only" since that appears to be a "great divide" within the ranks of Christians but neither category would exclude Catholic Christians since there are Catholics who believe and teach the continuation of the various gifts and there are Catholic Christians who do not, or who limit the continuation to saints and shrines but do not like or promote speaking in tongues and similar phenomena.

I see your point,due to a movement of Charismatic Catholic belivers.
I do not know if they are full Gospel as in the context of gifts and some other teaching offered in Charismatic belief.

 

[Hebrews 11]

it mater snot ones stances .. it is ones willingness to be obedient to the lord Jesus and cast off teaching that are plainly not of him ...

hold to what denomination you wish .. but follow its apostasy imposed over the word of God and there can be no fellowship .

I thought that was the Pont of this thread?
Biblicist asked why it has become a Eucumenical fourm, with out certain faith groups.

I personally believe myself to be a Christian first,then I base my theology on God's Word.
If I miss understand the context of a book or epistle I will stand corrected.

Unfortunately we are not all a like body of belivers,some doctrines are so far apart I cannot see a Eucumenical standard that would bring everyone together.
I had a commentary from the World Council of Churches,in the introduction
It stated that much of the accounts in the Bible are fables.
I tossed the book.

 

[Hebrews 11]

According to a Pew Forum analysis of estimates from the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are about 279 million pentecostal Christians and 305 million charismatic Christians in the world. (For definitions, see Defining Christian Movements.) This means that, according to this analysis, pentecostal and charismatic Christians together make up about 27% of all Christians and more than 8% of the world’s total population.15 (As noted in the Executive Summary, these estimates are based primarily on numbers provided by Christian organizations and are derived differently from the other figures in this study, which are based mainly on censuses and surveys; see Methodology for Estimating Christian Movements (PDF) for more details.)
gc-movements-1
In addition, more than 285 million Christians are classified by the CSGC as evangelical, either because they belong to churches affiliated with regional or global evangelical associations or because they identify as evangelicals. Because many pentecostals and charismatics also are evangelicals, these categories are not mutually exclusive; the number of evangelicals should not be added to the number of pentecostal and charismatic Christians.


http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/christianity-graphic-40.png

 

[Hebrews 11]

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/webready-graphic-43.png

Click on this chart and you will find the majority of protestant groups are pentecostal and non denominations independent, together they out number all denominations with 48 % of the total.

Why would we exclude the majority in this fourm?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I see your point,due to a movement of Charismatic Catholic believers.
I do not know if they are full Gospel as in the context of gifts and some other teaching offered in Charismatic belief.

Catholics who embrace the charismatic movement are nonetheless Catholic Christians and accept the teaching of the Catholic Church - though no doubt some individuals may reject this or that teaching to the peril of their souls. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "full gospel" but if it means following the common views expressed in Pentecostal literature and by Pentecostal televangelists then every Christian ought to approach it with caution.

 

[Hebrews 11]

Catholics who embrace the charismatic movement are nonetheless Catholic Christians and accept the teaching of the Catholic Church - though no doubt some individuals may reject this or that teaching to the peril of their souls. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "full gospel" but if it means following the common views expressed in Pentecostal literature and by Pentecostal televangelists then every Christian ought to approach it with caution.

I'm a bit confused, are you making a asumption that Pentecostals or other movements similar to are dangerous?

Just as there are differences between Catholics, and Lutherans, there are differences between Pentecostals and Charismatics.

The odd thing is you do not find Pentecostals or Charismatics practicing any of the ceremonies of Catholicism, but there are Catholics who practice Charismatic doctrines.

If someone's soul was in peril when they died,
Correct me if I am wrong in assuming that Catholics believe that for a ,modest fee a soul can be prayed out of purgatory.

The condition of purgatory is only allowed for people who die in a form of grace but not enough to make Heaven ,they need some help from the earnest prayer of a Catholic Priest.

I am certainly glad that Pentecostals and Charismatics believe that Christ Jesus is the only way ,the only truth and the only way to eternal life.

I do not find any results when Judas prayed the sins would be blotted out from the dead,as well no reference to a soul holding place prior to a dead man's destination.

But in Paul's epistemology he teaches to be absent from the body is to be present with
the Lord.

The Book of Mackabees was constructed in 2nd century BC that is before Christ.
It's context considers the invasion of the Greeks the Abomination of Desolation as referenced by Daniel.

I find it a bit odd that 200 years later Christ made the same reference pertaining to his second coming.
Matthew: 24. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

I do not think theology based on Christ is in peril at all.

So much for Eucumenical standards.