What does Jesus redeem you from?

[Lamb]

I now strive to be pleasing to my Savior and Lord and attain to all that God has called me to, that I "might somehow attain unto the resurrection out from among the dead" . and receive the fullness of God's promise to the Elect.

This is still the job of the Redeemer...to redeem you so you may receive what God has promised to you.

 

[Josiah]

Yes, the SAVED are called to do much. But the SAVED doing so (always insufficiently, always imperfectly, always incompletely) is not how the SAVED become SAVED; it's what the SAVED strive to do because they are SAVED.

Mixing and confusing Law and Gospel - as witnessed by some posts in the thread and elsewhere - only serve to confuse and to make Christ LESS than the Savior. IMO, it is the goal of Satan to cause us to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible, to take our trust off the Cross and place it on the mirror, to ultimately make our destiny dependent on self. IF Satan can cause us to confuse the Law with the Gospel, he then can eliminate Jesus as the Savior. He's happy to make Jesus the possibility-maker, the Offerer, the door-opener, the divine helper, the Inspiration/Teacher/Example, HAPPY to make Christ ANYTHING that will appeal but isn't the SAVIOR. Then he has destroyed Christianity - while welcoming people to worship Jesus, honor Jesus, proclaim Jesus - as long as that Jesus isn't the Savior (self is), as long as they don't hold that JESUS' works SAVE but rather our own (perhaps empowered entirely by God even; that's fine with the Devil).

 

[Lamb]

Yes, the SAVED are called to do much. But the SAVED doing so (always insufficiently, always imperfectly, always incompletely) is not how the SAVED become SAVED; it's what the SAVED strive to do because they are SAVED.

Mixing and confusing Law and Gospel - as witnessed by some posts in the thread and elsewhere - only serve to confuse and to make Christ LESS than the Savior. IMO, it is the goal of Satan to cause us to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible, to take our trust off the Cross and place it on the mirror, to ultimately make our destiny dependent on self. IF Satan can cause us to confuse the Law with the Gospel, he then can eliminate Jesus as the Savior. He's happy to make Jesus the possibility-maker, the Offerer, the door-opener, the divine helper, the Inspiration/Teacher/Example, HAPPY to make Christ ANYTHING that will appeal but isn't the SAVIOR. Then he has destroyed Christianity - while welcoming people to worship Jesus, honor Jesus, proclaim Jesus - as long as that Jesus isn't the Savior (self is), as long as they don't hold that JESUS' works SAVE but rather our own (perhaps empowered entirely by God even; that's fine with the Devil).

Michael insists that being "saved" is not the same as having eternal life with God. This confusion gets in his way of seeing that Jesus' work is the one that counts and the one that declares us righteous. We only receive eternal life because of what the Triune God does, not what we do. We receive.

 

[Michael]

Remember, Jesus cannot overcome for us.

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]

I strongly disagree. I do not view Jesus as impotent to save. I believe that He IS the Savior, and thus He saves us. The impotence in on our side (thus the need to be saved) NOT on Jesus' side.

.

Many do not agree. But it is clear Bible.

Are you familiar with Revelation chapters 2 & 3?

"To him who overcomes..." begin all the promises of God given to those who are already "saved." If Jesus had overcome for us individually, and these promise are already ours, then these 7 verses would need not have been spoken by our Lord Jesus. (Rev 2:7, Rev 2:11, Rev 2:17, Rev 2:26, Rev 3:5, Rev 3:12, Rev 3:21; as well as Rev 21:7, which was the inspiration for the website the Lord led me to start.)

We see later in Revelation how one "overcomes."

"Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." - Rev 12:10-11

The modern songs like to leave out that third clause, but it is just as important as the first two. Jesus cannot make me not love my life. That has to be my choice, and be proven by my actions, especially as God tests us to see if we will "obey Him or not", and remain faithful as He "refines us in the furnace of affliction."

It really is that simple!

Peace & Blessings. :ange06:

 

[Michael]

Michael insists that being "saved" is not the same as having eternal life with God. This confusion gets in his way of seeing that Jesus' work is the one that counts and the one that declares us righteous. We only receive eternal life because of what the Triune God does, not what we do. We receive.

Man, we are such different levels of understanding.

Seriously though, I'd love to have you in one of my Bible Classes, especially when I'm teaching on the New Creation or the Eternal Priesthood. It would make for some interesting discussion among the saints.
And I do believe you could learn much! reach: :bible:


Peace & Blessings.

 

[Lamb]

Man, we are such different levels of understanding.

Seriously though, I'd love to have you in one of my Bible Classes, especially when I'm teaching on the New Creation or the Eternal Priesthood. It would make for some interesting discussion among the saints.
And I do believe you could learn much! reach: :bible:


Peace & Blessings.

You can boast about yourself all you want but you still say nothing about how JESUS REDEEMS you for eternal life. All you do is talk about yourself.

 

[Josiah]

Remember, Jesus cannot overcome for us.



Many do not agree. But it is clear Bible.

Are you familiar with Revelation chapters 2 & 3?

"To him who overcomes..." begin all the promises of God given to those who are already "saved." If Jesus had overcome for us individually, and these promise are already ours, then these 7 verses would need not have been spoken by our Lord Jesus. (Rev 2:7, Rev 2:11, Rev 2:17, Rev 2:26, Rev 3:5, Rev 3:12, Rev 3:21; as well as Rev 21:7, which was the inspiration for the website the Lord led me to start.)

We see later in Revelation how one "overcomes."

"Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." - Rev 12:10-11

The modern songs like to leave out that third clause, but it is just as important as the first two. Jesus cannot make me not love my life. That has to be my choice, and be proven by my actions, especially as God tests us to see if we will "obey Him or not", and remain faithful as He "refines us in the furnace of affliction."

It really is that simple!

YES, it really is simple: Jesus is the Savior. You are not. Not at all. Not a bit. Not now, not ever. Job's taken.


Can those with the divine GIFT of spiritual life, faith, the Holy Spirit ("salvation") FALL from such? Theoretically, yes.... and the Bible has many warning about such. But that is entirely unrelated to the gifting by God of spiritual life/faith/Holy Spirit. If I'm given a Fararri, I should be responsible with it and not run it into a wall at 210 MPH but my being responsible with the gift is not how I attain the gift. Apples and oranges. Your confusing the two simply threatens (if not destroys) the Gospel and the entirety of the Christian faith. What the LIVING do is not what causes them to be alive. The reality that the living can be irresponsible and even commit sucide has nothing to do with how they became alive. This thread is not about what the SAVED are to do, it's about becoming SAVED. Your mixing and confusing Law with the Gospel simply destroys both and serves only to state that self saves self by doing "x,y,z."


Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?"


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)



A blessed Advent to all.



- Josiah





.

 

[Michael]

You can boast about yourself all you want but you still say nothing about how JESUS REDEEMS you for eternal life. All you do is talk about yourself.

I notice that you ignore the multitude of passages directly from the canon of Scripture which I quote to support (and they absolutely confirm) the doctrine the Lord has given me to teach; and you clip out a sentence or two where I (as did Pail) defend myself from belittlement and mockery. Otherwise, if you've read any of the extensive Bible Studies I've presented, you'd realize that I never talk about myself.

I'm only hear to preach Christ and God's Kingdom! reach: :bible:



.

 

[Michael]

YES, it really is simple: Jesus is the Savior. You are not. Not at all. Not a bit. Not now, not ever. Job's taken.

.

Understanding what the Holy Spirit gave Paul to write in 1Cor 10:1-12, as well as the Book of Hebrews, (on which the Lord has given great insight and allowed me to teach extensively in churches) helps tremendously when discussing what the Scripture means concerning "salvation."

I know and agree with all the verses you & Kathy & others have quoted on this site. They are absolutely True. As well, none of them cancel out any of the multitude of passages I have referenced. Period. Remember, if any verse is suspect, then all are suspect and we are without a solid foundation to our faith.

Of course I am not my own Savior. That is elementary understanding. However, God is raising up "co-heirs" of Christ who will become "One with Him as He is One with the Father", who will bring salvation to the nations in that Day. "Saviors" (plural) the Scripture says. And the Word cannot be broken.

And if God has called some to that, and He has put in on my heart, do I dare refuse His commission and calling on my life just so that others will not be uncomfortable, or perhaps even feel conviction? No.
As the Apostles rightly stated, "I must obey God rather than man."

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom & Understanding to all who "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus."

 

[Lamb]

I notice that you ignore the multitude of passages directly from the canon of Scripture which I quote to support (and they absolutely confirm) the doctrine the Lord has given me to teach; and you clip out a sentence or two where I (as did Pail) defend myself from belittlement and mockery. Otherwise, if you've read any of the extensive Bible Studies I've presented, you'd realize that I never talk about myself.

I'm only hear to preach Christ and God's Kingdom! reach: :bible:



.

And here's another response from you that doesn't address the topic of Jesus redeeming you for eternal life. Or maybe you don't believe Jesus does anything for you to have eternal life? You mentioned bondage from sin and then you go back into saying you still must do something...and that removes Jesus from ever having done anything for your eternal life.

Yes, you quote scripture...an awful lot of Law but you don't quote Gospel where Jesus gives you eternal life because of HIS obedience. I mean HE is the Redeemer. He is the Savior. He is the perfect lamb of God who has atoned for your sins so that you could have eternal life.

Yet you claim He is your Redeemer and then remove that when you say you need to do something to redeem yourself. You insist that Jesus can't do the things that YOU need to do in order to have eternal life. That's speaking about you and not the Redeemer. So yeah, you do talk about yourself.

 

[Josiah]

YES, it really is simple: Jesus is the Savior. You are not. Not at all. Not a bit. Not now, not ever. Job's taken.


Can those with the divine GIFT of spiritual life, faith, the Holy Spirit ("salvation") FALL from such? Theoretically, yes.... and the Bible has many warning about such. But that is entirely unrelated to the gifting by God of spiritual life/faith/Holy Spirit. If I'm given a Fararri, I should be responsible with it and not run it into a wall at 210 MPH but my being responsible with the gift is not how I attain the gift. Apples and oranges. Your confusing the two simply threatens (if not destroys) the Gospel and the entirety of the Christian faith. What the LIVING do is not what causes them to be alive. The reality that the living can be irresponsible and even commit sucide has nothing to do with how they became alive. This thread is not about what the SAVED are to do, it's about becoming SAVED. Your mixing and confusing Law with the Gospel simply destroys both and serves only to state that self saves self by doing "x,y,z."


Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?"


The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the Mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually self is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.



WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.



Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)[/b]



A blessed Advent to all.


.

Of course I am not my own Savior. That is elementary understanding. However....

No, the Christian Gospel is not "an elementary understanding." It is the keystone of Christianity, the point on which it stands or falls. And it IS very simple.

You seem to claim to be hearing some voice (speaking only to you) that is saying actually, it's far more complicated than Jesus is the Savior so Jesus saves. Some voice confusing Law and Gospel.... some voice telling you to trust the one in the mirror rather than the One on the Cross. MY advise to you: Tell that voice where to go.




.

 

[Lamb]

No, the Christian Gospel is not "an elementary understanding." It is the keystone of Christianity, the point on which it stands or falls. And it IS very simple.

You seem to claim to be hearing some voice (speaking only to you) that is saying actually, it's far more complicated than Jesus is the Savior so Jesus saves. Some voice confusing Law and Gospel.... some voice telling you to trust the one in the mirror rather than the One on the Cross. MY advise to you: Tell that voice where to go.




.

Amen!

If the concept of Jesus redeeming us without our help becomes twisted then the rest of doctrine follows suit...twisted.

What does Jesus redeem us from? The answer most have said here is SIN. Now what we need to look at is to what extent do some of you believe that? Do you believe all sin? Some sin? Maybe only sin from a certain point on? But that's not what the bible says. If Jesus came to atone for all sin then that's the truth, all sin.

Then what does that mean that He has atoned for all sins? When we die what happens? What if we didn't obey God enough? What if we left a sin unconfessed? These are questions that a proper distinction of Law and Gospel can answer.

When we die, we haven't obeyed God completely as His holy law demands. Only Jesus did that. He's God.
What if we left a sin unconfessed when we die? By grace through faith we trust that our sins were atoned for...all of them at the cross.

What if I don't want to give up a sin? This is something that a lot of Christians come here and accuse others of doing, not giving up sins in order to gain eternity with God. It's true that the Law says that sin brings death. It's true that we should repent of our sins. It's true that clinging to a sin we don't want to give up can make us fall away... but how? It isn't the sin exactly, the way we aren't obeying God that would remove us from God's promise, it's us. Clinging to our sins means we push God away and in doing so we can push faith away. Turning from God and rejecting the Savior is what damns us.

So the Law tells us we need to do all kinds of things and man either thinks he can do it (and he's wrong) or he panics knowing he can't do it (and doesn't find comfort thinking he won't be with God eternally).

The Gospel on the other hand gives you that Redeemer! Only the Gospel, not the Law, gives you the comfort of knowing you are reconciled to God because of Jesus. The Gospel doesn't say YOU Do This for eternal life because that's the Law's job. The Gospel says God has done this and will bring us to eternity...only because of Him. Only because He has redeemed us from what has separated us from Him which is sin.

 

[Michael]

No, the Christian Gospel is not "an elementary understanding." It is the keystone of Christianity, the point on which it stands or falls. And it IS very simple.

You seem to claim to be hearing some voice (speaking only to you) that is saying actually, it's far more complicated than Jesus is the Savior so Jesus saves. Some voice confusing Law and Gospel.... some voice telling you to trust the one in the mirror rather than the One on the Cross. MY advise to you: Tell that voice where to go.

"Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, 2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And we will do this if God permits." - Heb 6:1-3 HCSB

The letter of Hebrews - written to those who had been "saved" and progressed a lot further along that most of us today - is largely a warning, again to "Christians". not to settle in their faith, thinking they had already arrived. This is similar to much of Paul's writing, especially Philippians and 1Corinthians, as he continually warned those who had been "saved' and "forgiven" that, as Israel, we could miss out on the Kingdom and the promises if we did not "run our race" well, "walk worthy" and "press in" by "repentance" and "obedience." Sadly, I'm discovering that most preachers & pastors shy away from teaching this Truth. Fear of losing congregants, or even a genuine heart for the "lost", produces much of the watered down Gospel we have today. Yet the "voice" from the Holy Spirit is saying so much more the church at large has heard. The writer of Hebrews in chapter 5 admonishes such for not teaching the people to discern between good and evil, for it is our behavior that will determine our eternal lot. (Jesus taught this throughout most of His Parables.)

Indeed the "voice" I am hearing is the exact same Voice that spoke to the Prophets, the Apostles and to Jesus Himself.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

Can we really throw away almost the entire New Testament, in favor or a handful of verses? Remember, not a single word in the NT epistles is written to the "unsaved." Even Rom 6:23, Rev 3:20, which are favorites of evangelists who preach to the lost, are written directly to "Christians."

"Good and upright is the Lord;
Therefore He teaches sinners in the way.
9 The humble He guides in justice,
And the humble He teaches His way.
10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth,
To such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.
11 For Your name’s sake, O Lord,
Pardon my iniquity, for it is great.

12 Who is the man that fears the Lord?
Him shall He teach in the way He chooses.
13 He himself shall dwell in prosperity,
And his descendants shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him,
And He will show them His covenant."
- Psalm 25:8-14

Amen.

Let's not get stuck on being "saved" as if it is the goal of our faith, and the end of our Journey. For it is only the very first step!

We're not there yet. And not talking about "heaven" either, that's not our goal or destiny. But that's another topic.

For any curious, we looked a little into our Goal, here on CH. reach: :bible:

https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7553-The-GOAL&highlight=Goal

And we touch a bit on Psalm 25 on the website. Good solid Bible Study!


Peace & Blessings to you, brother, as you walk with Jesus the Way of the Cross.


.

 

[Lamb]

The letter of Hebrews - written to those who had been "saved" and progressed a lot further along that most of us today - is largely a warning, again to "Christians". not to settle in their faith, thinking they had already arrived. .

The Letter to Hebrews is an exhortation to not fall away from faith. It's not at all what you say that Christians should not settle in their faith. It's not at all what you say that we should think we've already arrived.

It's a letter to use the Law properly to caution believers that they COULD FALL FROM FAITH

Here's an excellent article on Hebrews with various quotes from it below: https://www.holytrinity.net/hebrews-more-like-a-sermon-than-a-letter/

The Letter to the Hebrews calls itself “a word of exhortation” (Hebrews 13:22) and stylistically, it is more like a sermon than a letter.

We do not know who wrote Hebrews. The letter does not say and the author is unknown. However its writing is stylistically elegant and its theology is brilliant. The theme of the Book of Hebrews is that Jesus, the eternal Son of God, by His completely effective High-Priestly work, offers all people perfect cleansing from our sins and admittance to the presence of God.

In Chapter 4, the warnings about what happened to the faithless Israelites during the time of the wilderness wanderings under Moses, give us to understand that Hebrews was written to encourage Christians who had become discouraged.

Jesus Christ was able to do what the old Mosaic Covenant could not do and make us stand in the very presence of God. Through His ministry, we are able to stand before God forgiven, holy, and becoming like God in character — something the old Mosaic covenant could never do.

The author reminds us that we who have the Holy Spirit, have already experienced a foretaste of that kingdom that is being brought in by Christ’s return — and so we really need to beware of becoming indifferent and unbelieving in our pilgrimage toward the final city. We do not want to fall in the wilderness as unbelieving Israel fell.

Before I end, I really need to say something about what Hebrews says about “no second repentance.” Through the years, this has really frightened and dismayed a lot of Christians.

Well, it SHOULD frighten you. It’s intended to frighten us. The Bible not only encourages and comforts: it also uses “the occasional disincentive.” “If you do that, you’re going to Hell.”

This IS really scary stuff. Hebrews is coming right out and saying that it is impossible to get forgiveness for those who have departed from the faith. After you have publicly rejected Christ — the text is talking about deliberate apostasy — it is impossible to be restored back to fellowship with God because to depart from the faith is to crucify Christ all over again.

If you think about it, of course there is no second forgiveness. If a Christian rejects what God has done for his or her salvation, there is no other remedy for sins. If you say, “I don’t like Plan A, and I refuse it” there’s trouble waiting for you because there IS no “Plan B.” There’s only this one way for you to find forgiveness of sins. If you refuse it, there IS no second way.

And that’s what Hebrews is saying. If you want to be an apostate and reject the forgiveness God offers, you get to do that — but God isn’t going to come up with a Plan B to suit you. If you reject His way of forgiveness, there IS no second way. That’s the way it is.

 

[Michael]

The Letter to Hebrews is an exhortation to not fall away from faith.

Here's an excellent article on Hebrews with various quotes from it below: https://www.holytrinity.net/hebrews-more-like-a-sermon-than-a-letter/

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Amen! It's nice to see the writer of this article agrees with much of what I teach, especially concerning the need to walk obediently, and the need for righteous deeds. And how it was what they DID that proved many OT characters had faith in God.

I disagree with his belief that David was of the Melchizedek line, but other than that it is a pretty sound essay.

A direct quote from the article you sent me, that is much along the lines of what I've been teaching for many years now, that I would encourage you & others to meditate on -

"The author (of Hebrews) reminds us that we who have the Holy Spirit, have already experienced a foretaste of that kingdom that is being brought in by Christ’s return — and so we really need to beware of becoming indifferent and unbelieving in our pilgrimage toward the final city. We do not want to fall in the wilderness as unbelieving Israel fell.

Instead, we need to press on in faith and devote ourselves to righteous living and loving deeds, because the day of judgment is drawing near."

Amen.

Peace & Blessings to you this weekend as you spend time with the Word.

 

[Lamb]

Amen! It's nice to see the writer of this article agrees with much of what I teach, especially concerning the need to walk obediently, and the need for righteous deeds. And how it was what they DID that proved many OT characters had faith in God.

I disagree with his belief that David was of the Melchizedek line, but other than that it is a pretty sound essay.

A direct quote from the article you sent me, that is much along the lines of what I've been teaching for many years now, that I would encourage you & others to meditate on -

"The author (of Hebrews) reminds us that we who have the Holy Spirit, have already experienced a foretaste of that kingdom that is being brought in by Christ’s return — and so we really need to beware of becoming indifferent and unbelieving in our pilgrimage toward the final city. We do not want to fall in the wilderness as unbelieving Israel fell.

Instead, we need to press on in faith and devote ourselves to righteous living and loving deeds, because the day of judgment is drawing near."

Amen.

Peace & Blessings to you this weekend as you spend time with the Word.

You do understand that the author is showing Law and Gospel? The Law tells us to be on guard. The Gospel never gives that warning but gives redemption? You are very quick to pick out the Law and say SEE SEE there it is. But you are slow to preach Gospel.

Edited to add that the author of the article is proving to you that eternal life is "by grace through faith" and not because of man's obedience. Do you see it? Do you see the Redeemer (it's not you, it's Jesus)?

 

[Michael]

You do understand that the author is showing Law and Gospel? The Law tells us to be on guard. The Gospel never gives that warning but gives redemption? You are very quick to pick out the Law and say SEE SEE there it is. But you are slow to preach Gospel.

Edited to add that the author of the article is proving to you that eternal life is "by grace through faith" and not because of man's obedience. Do you see it? Do you see the Redeemer (it's not you, it's Jesus)?

If WE, who have been "saved", are not on guard, as the Spirit warns US, we may miss out on the promises of God. Can you see that from the whole of Scripture?

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." - 1Cor 10:3 (I strongly encourage you to follow along in the 1Cor 10 study I've been sharing)

The Spirit, through the Apostle, is crystal clear here -

"I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." - Rom 11:13-22

There are hundreds more passages I could quote, but even in these passages here, which are on absolute par with John 3:16, we can see the need for us to 'be on guard' lest, although "saved" we may fall short.


Friend, it's OK to learn new things, it really is! Don't you want to know the fullness of all the counsel of God? Personally, I began where you are at. God is bringing us past the elementary principles into the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. That is my hunger, which He has promised to satisfy in those who press in.

Peace & Blessings! :ange06:

 

[Josiah]

"Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, 2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And we will do this if God permits." - Heb 6:1-3 HCSB

The letter of Hebrews - written to those who had been "saved" and progressed a lot further along that most of us today - is largely a warning, again to "Christians". not to settle in their faith, thinking they had already arrived. This is similar to much of Paul's writing, especially Philippians and 1Corinthians, as he continually warned those who had been "saved' and "forgiven" that, as Israel, we could miss out on the Kingdom and the promises if we did not "run our race" well, "walk worthy" and "press in" by "repentance" and "obedience." Sadly, I'm discovering that most preachers & pastors shy away from teaching this Truth. Fear of losing congregants, or even a genuine heart for the "lost", produces much of the watered down Gospel we have today. Yet the "voice" from the Holy Spirit is saying so much more the church at large has heard. The writer of Hebrews in chapter 5 admonishes such for not teaching the people to discern between good and evil, for it is our behavior that will determine our eternal lot. (Jesus taught this throughout most of His Parables.)

Indeed the "voice" I am hearing is the exact same Voice that spoke to the Prophets, the Apostles and to Jesus Himself.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"

Can we really throw away almost the entire New Testament, in favor or a handful of verses? Remember, not a single word in the NT epistles is written to the "unsaved." Even Rom 6:23, Rev 3:20, which are favorites of evangelists who preach to the lost, are written directly to "Christians."

"Good and upright is the Lord;
Therefore He teaches sinners in the way.
9 The humble He guides in justice,
And the humble He teaches His way.
10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth,
To such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.
11 For Your name’s sake, O Lord,
Pardon my iniquity, for it is great.

12 Who is the man that fears the Lord?
Him shall He teach in the way He chooses.
13 He himself shall dwell in prosperity,
And his descendants shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him,
And He will show them His covenant."
- Psalm 25:8-14

Amen.

Let's not get stuck on being "saved" as if it is the goal of our faith, and the end of our Journey. For it is only the very first step!

We're not there yet. And not talking about "heaven" either, that's not our goal or destiny. But that's another topic.

For any curious, we looked a little into our Goal, here on CH. reach: :bible:

https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7553-The-GOAL&highlight=Goal

And we touch a bit on Psalm 25 on the website. Good solid Bible Study!


Peace & Blessings to you, brother, as you walk with Jesus the Way of the Cross.


.

If you agree with yourself that the Letter to the Hebrews was written to CHRISTIANS then it's irrelevant to this thread. This thread is about BECOMING a Christian, not LIVING as a Christian. Your seeming obsession on confusing the two, mixing the two, blending Law and Gospel, interjecting the Law in place of the Gospel, well.... it's very troubling.

Twisting the Gospel into Law..... telling people to look in the mirror for salvation rather than to the Cross.... that's not "watering down the Gospel" it's repudiating it.

IMO, the Law should be preached clearly and "straight up" - be perfect as God is, be as holy as God is, consistently "hit the target" in do the full will of God in thought, word and deed, 24/7, love as He first loved us, make disciples of everyone... that's the Law. Now, that CANNOT save us because that CANNOT be done by us. And NOTE: The sole, only, exclusing issue of this thread IS salvation. I also believe the Gospel should be preached boldly, clearly and straight up - God is merciful to sinners, God is gracious even to one who is "the chief of sinners" (as SAINT Paul correctly labels himself), Christ died for sinners, Christ IS THE Savior (not helper, not inspiration, not teacher, not door opener, not possibility-maker, not Offerer), the one who picks up DEAD, lifeless, enemies of God and SAVES them (not partly, not temporarily, not conditional upon them earning it). Now, does the Law apply to Christians too? Yup. But the law cannot save - it can KILL, it can CONDEMN, it can even guide the SAVED but it cannot. "If the law could save then Christ was in vain."

Now, IF you want to say, "Being saved is not the end of our relationship with God - we are to grow evermore Christ-like" then GOOD! Everyone here at CH will agree with you. But don't confuse that with BECOMING saved .... and don't do it in a thread that's only about BEING saved. Example: If there's a thread about "How is physical life gained?" And you post, "We need to get lost of good exercise!" Well, that's true - it just is not how one becomes physically alive. And if you keep HARPING on the ne4d to exercise in the topic of how to gain physical life - over and over - then it sure confuses the the point that God GIVES that life. You seem to be confusing things, mixing things - in a way that strongly suggests the destruction of the Gospel, the repudiation of Jesus as the Savior. I can't tell if you mean that OR if you are persistent, stubborn even, in conveying this in a way that is extremely dangerous and misleading.

 

[Michael]

If you agree with yourself that the Letter to the Hebrews was written to CHRISTIANS then it's irrelevant to this thread. This thread is about BECOMING a Christian, not LIVING as a Christian. Your seeming obsession on confusing the two, mixing the two, blending Law and Gospel, interjecting the Law in place of the Gospel, well.... it's very troubling.

Troubling to whom? I am at great peace with the understanding the Lord has given me.

And the thread is about "redemption" is it not? Since "being saved" is the beginning of the fullness of Redemption, then it does have place here.

Finally, NO, I do not have any confusion regarding the Law of Moses and the Gospel. Realizing that the Gospel was first preached to Israel in the wilderness, and that the Law of the Spirit of Life will be in effect for us eternally helps clear the confusion that many in the churches have today.

And so I teach! reach: :bible:

.

 

[Josiah]

If WE, who have been "saved", are not on guard, as the Spirit warns US, we may miss out on the promises of God. Can you see that from the whole of Scripture?

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." - 1Cor 10:3 (I strongly encourage you to follow along in the 1Cor 10 study I've been sharing)

The Spirit, through the Apostle, is crystal clear here -

"I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." - Rom 11:13-22

There are hundreds more passages I could quote, but even in these passages here, which are on absolute par with John 3:16, we can see the need for us to 'be on guard' lest, although "saved" we may fall short.


Friend, it's OK to learn new things, it really is! Don't you want to know the fullness of all the counsel of God? Personally, I began where you are at. God is bringing us past the elementary principles into the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. That is my hunger, which He has promised to satisfy in those who press in.

Peace & Blessings! :ange06:

Wrong topic. This thread is not a repudiation of OSAS and a support that one can fall from faith (and thus salvation). It's about BECOMING saved - and what we are saved from. Read the title of the thread. Read the opening post. Address the issue. If you want to repudiate OSAS.... if you want to note that falling from faith is possible... if you want to say that Chrsitians should be nice.... you'll get no argument from me (but you will from 2 or 3 posters here at CH, lol). But that's not the issue, is it?