JOHN 20:23 IS NOT FOR THE CHURCH TODAY

Doug

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John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This was spoken to the disciples; there is nothing in this verse that could substantiate applying this to the church, the body of Christ today.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The time frame of this is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God consists of a heavenly and earthly component (1 Chronicles 29:11). The earthly kingdom is in view here based on Matthew 16:19 saying it is on earth. During the earthly kingdom Peter will be given power to remit sins just as the other disciples.
 

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Why do you feel that the keys are not given to the Church (the people of God)?
 

NewCreation435

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John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This was spoken to the disciples; there is nothing in this verse that could substantiate applying this to the church, the body of Christ today.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The time frame of this is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God consists of a heavenly and earthly component (1 Chronicles 29:11). The earthly kingdom is in view here based on Matthew 16:19 saying it is on earth. During the earthly kingdom Peter will be given power to remit sins just as the other disciples.

I would have to agree with you that the verse in John does not apply to believers today. It was specifically spoken to the disciples.
 

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I would have to agree with you that the verse in John does not apply to believers today. It was specifically spoken to the disciples.

Why do you think that?
 

NewCreation435

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Why do you think that?

One thing is that it seems clear he was speaking directly to the disciples about their authority as apostles. The other thing is that if it applied to us today then how would you apply that in daily life? If your mad at someone just don't forgive them? How exactly would that work?
 

Doug

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Why do you feel that the keys are not given to the Church (the people of God)?

The body of Christ does not inherit the earth

Jesus was speaking to the disciples
 

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I would have to agree with you that the verse in John does not apply to believers today. It was specifically spoken to the disciples.

That said, can we agree that Matt 28:16-20 was only for the Eleven? Especially since it was spoken directly to them, and not preached to the crowd from the mount?
For personally, I do not think the so called "great commission" is for every church member to go out and make more church members.

I'll stop here before I commence to a-preachin'! I've taught a lot on this over the years!
Peace! :ange06:
 

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One thing is that it seems clear he was speaking directly to the disciples about their authority as apostles. The other thing is that if it applied to us today then how would you apply that in daily life? If your mad at someone just don't forgive them? How exactly would that work?

If you're mad at someone, that doesn't mean the person has committed a sin that shouldn't be forgiven. So I don't understand your point.

The office of the keys is about Law and Gospel and proper distinguishing between the two, knowing when to forgive and when to withhold forgiveness.

For those in despair of their sins, forgive! Jesus isn't stingy.

For those who hold tight to their sins, give them the Law...the Law doesn't forgive but accuses so that they can see their sins.
 

NewCreation435

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That said, can we agree that Matt 28:16-20 was only for the Eleven? Especially since it was spoken directly to them, and not preached to the crowd from the mount?
For personally, I do not think the so called "great commission" is for every church member to go out and make more church members.

I'll stop here before I commence to a-preachin'! I've taught a lot on this over the years!
Peace! :ange06:

To be honest, I'm less sure about that one. Since the disciples in this context could represent the church. Aren't we called to share the gospel as much as we are able to? How is that not being a part of the Great Commission?
 

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Yes we are a part of it. Like it or not we as Christians either share the gospel or disparage it in our daily walk. They are watchinmg and will know if you are a christian or a phony
 

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To be honest, I'm less sure about that one. Since the disciples in this context could represent the church. Aren't we called to share the gospel as much as we are able to? How is that not being a part of the Great Commission?

Just a couple quick thoughts on this…

“Now Jesus and His disciples went out to the towns of Caesarea Philippi; and on the road He asked His disciples, saying to them, “Who do men say that I am?”
28 So they answered, “John the Baptist; but some say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”
29 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.”
30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.

- Mark 8:27-30 NKJV

I’ve found it interesting over the years that, save for one fellowship, I’ve never heard preached what Jesus said here in Mark 8, as well as in a few other incidents.
We’ve been being told now for the past couple hundred years or so that our job as “believers” is to go out and “tell everybody about Jesus” and do what we can to “get them saved so they won’t’ go to hell.”
But is that a Bible message? Did Jesus teach that?

We do have one instance where Jesus healed the possessed man from the graveyard, and the man wanted to follow Jesus, and we see our Lord’s response -
“And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. 19 However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” 20 And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled.”
- Mark 5:18-20 NKJV

Is this then the model for all? Is that Jesus’ Word to everyone?
Another time, when Jesus raised up the little girl from death, “And her parents were astonished, but He charged them to tell no one what had happened.” (Luke 8:56)

Again, Jesus taught more often to NOT tell others about Him, then He did to have them proclaim His Name everywhere.
“Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.” – Matt 16:20

What has come to be called the “great commission” was given to the Eleven after Jesus Resurrection. Yet that was never His message to the crowds. To be a light by our works - yes; but to make it our mission to ‘save souls in a lost & dying world’ – no. In fact that is not a Biblical expression. Rather, our God says, “the world is Mine, and all its fullness.” (Psalm 50:12b)

And the Scripture declares, “The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

Is the world ‘lost & dying’? Or did God Himself subject it to futility because of sin, until He can present it as the glorious inheritance of the overcoming saints?
Our 'commission' now, is to "repent", "purify ourselves", and by "denying ourselves, picking up our cross daily and following Jesus" be truly "conformed into the image of God's Son", so that we can truly bring salvation to creation as "a Kingdom of Priests", Christ's "co-heir", His counterpart.

“For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.” – Rom 8:19-22 NKJV

Honestly, the charge given to the disciples in Matt 28, as well as His Word to them in John 20:23 is not for the church at large, but IS for the Elect of God who are the “called, chosen & faithful”, the ones who will “judge men & angels” and “rule over the nations” in that Day.
 

NewCreation435

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Just a couple quick thoughts on this…

“Now Jesus and His disciples went out to the towns of Caesarea Philippi; and on the road He asked His disciples, saying to them, “Who do men say that I am?”
28 So they answered, “John the Baptist; but some say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”
29 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.”
30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.

- Mark 8:27-30 NKJV

I’ve found it interesting over the years that, save for one fellowship, I’ve never heard preached what Jesus said here in Mark 8, as well as in a few other incidents.
We’ve been being told now for the past couple hundred years or so that our job as “believers” is to go out and “tell everybody about Jesus” and do what we can to “get them saved so they won’t’ go to hell.”
But is that a Bible message? Did Jesus teach that?

We do have one instance where Jesus healed the possessed man from the graveyard, and the man wanted to follow Jesus, and we see our Lord’s response -
“And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. 19 However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” 20 And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled.”
- Mark 5:18-20 NKJV

Is this then the model for all? Is that Jesus’ Word to everyone?
Another time, when Jesus raised up the little girl from death, “And her parents were astonished, but He charged them to tell no one what had happened.” (Luke 8:56)

Again, Jesus taught more often to NOT tell others about Him, then He did to have them proclaim His Name everywhere.
“Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.” – Matt 16:20

What has come to be called the “great commission” was given to the Eleven after Jesus Resurrection. Yet that was never His message to the crowds. To be a light by our works - yes; but to make it our mission to ‘save souls in a lost & dying world’ – no. In fact that is not a Biblical expression. Rather, our God says, “the world is Mine, and all its fullness.” (Psalm 50:12b)

And the Scripture declares, “The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

Is the world ‘lost & dying’? Or did God Himself subject it to futility because of sin, until He can present it as the glorious inheritance of the overcoming saints?
Our 'commission' now, is to "repent", "purify ourselves", and by "denying ourselves, picking up our cross daily and following Jesus" be truly "conformed into the image of God's Son", so that we can truly bring salvation to creation as "a Kingdom of Priests", Christ's "co-heir", His counterpart.

“For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.” – Rom 8:19-22 NKJV

Honestly, the charge given to the disciples in Matt 28, as well as His Word to them in John 20:23 is not for the church at large, but IS for the Elect of God who are the “called, chosen & faithful”, the ones who will “judge men & angels” and “rule over the nations” in that Day.

Yes, there were times when Jesus told people to be silent. My thought about that is that you see Jesus having more and more difficulty traveling in public because of the crowds following him. To the point that later in his ministry he had to stay in more remote areas because of the masses coming to him. So, in order to keep the crowds smaller then he would tell them not to tell or in one case he sent the lepers to the temple to offer a sacrifice in keeping with the Old Testament as a testimony of their healing.
The passage in Mark 5 I believe occurred because the people who the man was sent to sent him away the first time he saw them. So, due to this man's testimony the next time he arrives they receive him.
So, I guess basically what I am saying is that there was more immediate needs while Jesus was on earth that dictated whether people spoke about him or not.
 

Doug

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Just a couple quick thoughts on this…

“Now Jesus and His disciples went out to the towns of Caesarea Philippi; and on the road He asked His disciples, saying to them, “Who do men say that I am?”
28 So they answered, “John the Baptist; but some say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”
29 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said to Him, “You are the Christ.”
30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.

- Mark 8:27-30 NKJV

I’ve found it interesting over the years that, save for one fellowship, I’ve never heard preached what Jesus said here in Mark 8, as well as in a few other incidents.
We’ve been being told now for the past couple hundred years or so that our job as “believers” is to go out and “tell everybody about Jesus” and do what we can to “get them saved so they won’t’ go to hell.”
But is that a Bible message? Did Jesus teach that?

We do have one instance where Jesus healed the possessed man from the graveyard, and the man wanted to follow Jesus, and we see our Lord’s response -
“And when He got into the boat, he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. 19 However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” 20 And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled.”
- Mark 5:18-20 NKJV

Is this then the model for all? Is that Jesus’ Word to everyone?
Another time, when Jesus raised up the little girl from death, “And her parents were astonished, but He charged them to tell no one what had happened.” (Luke 8:56)

Again, Jesus taught more often to NOT tell others about Him, then He did to have them proclaim His Name everywhere.
“Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.” – Matt 16:20

What has come to be called the “great commission” was given to the Eleven after Jesus Resurrection. Yet that was never His message to the crowds. To be a light by our works - yes; but to make it our mission to ‘save souls in a lost & dying world’ – no. In fact that is not a Biblical expression. Rather, our God says, “the world is Mine, and all its fullness.” (Psalm 50:12b)

And the Scripture declares, “The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)

Is the world ‘lost & dying’? Or did God Himself subject it to futility because of sin, until He can present it as the glorious inheritance of the overcoming saints?
Our 'commission' now, is to "repent", "purify ourselves", and by "denying ourselves, picking up our cross daily and following Jesus" be truly "conformed into the image of God's Son", so that we can truly bring salvation to creation as "a Kingdom of Priests", Christ's "co-heir", His counterpart.

“For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.” – Rom 8:19-22 NKJV

Honestly, the charge given to the disciples in Matt 28, as well as His Word to them in John 20:23 is not for the church at large, but IS for the Elect of God who are the “called, chosen & faithful”, the ones who will “judge men & angels” and “rule over the nations” in that Day.

The doctrine for the church today is found in the epistles of Paul.

The "great commission " was for Israel.

We are to preach the gospel revealed to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

Our "commission" is found in 2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
 

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Jesus trained the disciples so that they can go forth and create new disciples. Jesus didn't limit the Office of the Keys to just the 11.
 

Doug

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Jesus trained the disciples so that they can go forth and create new disciples. Jesus didn't limit the Office of the Keys to just the 11.

I do not know of a verse that says the "keys" were given to any outside of the twelve
 

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I do not know of a verse that says the "keys" were given to any outside of the twelve

What other things in the gospel readings do you think were ONLY meant for the disciples? Enlighten me.
 

Doug

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What other things in the gospel readings do you think were ONLY meant for the disciples? Enlighten me.

The gospels of Matthew,Mark, Luke and John were all about the gospel of the kingdom on earth for Israel. They are all true and as the Word of God profitable but are not given to the body of Christ to obey.
 

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The gospels of Matthew,Mark, Luke and John were all about the gospel of the kingdom on earth for Israel. They are all true and as the Word of God profitable but are not given to the body of Christ to obey.

Jesus wasn't setting up a kingdom here on earth. "My kingdom is not of this world." So I disagree with you.
 

psalms 91

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The gospels of Matthew,Mark, Luke and John were all about the gospel of the kingdom on earth for Israel. They are all true and as the Word of God profitable but are not given to the body of Christ to obey.
He taught His disciples to pray that your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, no need for that if His kingdom was here
 

Doug

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He taught His disciples to pray that your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, no need for that if His kingdom was here

The kingdom was being offered but was postponed by Israel rejecting Christ......postponed to be fulfilled in the future
 
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