Is infant baptism from the Bible?

Josiah

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Josiah said:

The "answer" is yet another Anabaptist invention (not to derail this discussion to that!): "God doesn't hold those under the age of we-won't-say ACCOUNTABLE." They don't deny that those under that mysterious, never-disclosed age "sin" (well, some do) but exclusively for those under the 'wont-tell-you' age, God lays aside His justice and just winks. Thus, the wages of sin is death doesn't apply to those under the won't-tell-you-what age. No salvation is needed. Now SOME (usually not the Anabaptist) will say the faith of their PARENTS (especially mother) saves them vicariously but again, that's not an Anabaptist/Baptist dogma, "God winks at sin for those under the won't-tell-y0u-which age so they don't need no forgiveness, salvation, Jesus."


The Anabaptists invented all this stuff NOT because of some Scripture they claim every Christian for over 1500 years never notice (or just badly interpreted) BUT because they were radical synergists, and they made Baptism "jibe" with that (in order to be correct). The whole idea that God could bless someone who had done nothing and slept through the whole thing was offensive to them, laughable to them,HAD to be heresy - and Baptism needed to be viewed very differently. To them, God does NOTHING without the recipient taking the first step and in that sense earning or bringing about God's response.... so the point was made (it's kinda logical, assuming radical synergism): "How can one under the age of we-won't-tell-you DO the x,y,z that is required before God will do something for them?" They ask, "How can one DO the x,y,z that is needed to start things if that one is too "young" to DO that (however young "too young" is, we won't say)?" AND "How can they be cooperating with God if they sleep through the whole thing, for heaven's sake!?" Synergists MUST have the recipient take the first step.... MUST have the recipient cooperating in the process. It's the whole point of synergism, the recipient DOING, God just responding to what they first DO and continue to DO. Sincerely, Lamm, this is going right over your head because you are a monergist.


The Anabaptists not only were raging synergists but also held to a very odd rubric (one they rejected and repudiated but insisted on anyway), namely, "We cannot do anything unless it is illustrated as done that way in the Bible, and are forbidden to do anything that is not so illustrated in the Bible." They used this against ANYTHING that Catholics or Lutherans or Anglicans did that seemed monergistic to them or just "too Catholic." "Where was THAT done in the Bible?" Where do you see people crossing themselves in the Bible? You don't, so it is forbidden and wrong and sinful and to be forbidden!!!" They had a long, long list of things that they dogmatically prohibited because "it's never seen in the Bible." They made a huge point about "Children baptized" too, asking ENDLESSLY, "Where do you see children baptized in the Bible?" YOU DON'T - so it's wrong, forbidden, prohibited, "Catholic." SO much of the Anabaptist obsession with getting rid of Catholic practices flows from this premise. And, as I'm sure you noticed, so much of modern Baptist apologetics on this does, as well. Of course, the premise is absurd. And they never abide by it - not even just with baptism. I've posted a few times to show the illogic, the silliness of this whole rubric and shown that NO Baptist actually believes this or does this. They are basing the argument on something they themselves hold is false and invalid (and never employ themselves).


Lamm.... to the raging synergist, this reinvention of Baptism makes a certain sense. Thus their constant mantra: "How can those under the age of we-won't-tell-you DO _________?" (fill in the blank with whatever, the assumption of synergism is the same). And with the absurd, laughable rubric they themselves repudiate and never use, there is a certain point,too. Thus their constant, endless, mind-numbing, "Where in the Bible do you EVER see an American Baptist being baptized? HUH? Answer the question!!!! It's YOU DON'T! So it's forbidden, it's prohibited, it's against Scripture!" Sound familiar? Gets mind-numbing.


Friend, in my latest thread to share this historic view, I begin with the monergism point and reject the synergistic one. And I address the silliness of founding a whole apologetic on a principle Baptists repudiate as wrong and never use. Remember too, some of us have dedicated a lot of time to conveying the historic view - and it's ALWAYS entirely ignored; those with the reconstruction tradition always evade/ignore it. Consider that. It's a falsehood to say "the historic folks won't discuss this, don't give Scripture" it's that they avoid it.


Does that help?



- Josiah




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When humans believe their action forces God to act, it is synergism.


Something Lamm and I (and others with the historic view on baptism) never do. As everyone knows.

The synergistic view is that God can't (or won't) do anything until the recipient does some stuff and then cooperates with God. A very radical form of that synergism is your apologetic for the Anabaptist's reinvention of Baptism. Try reading the post you quoted..

You have perfectly parroted the radically synergistic apologetic as well as the silly rubric that the Anabaptist used for their reinvention. Try reading the post you quoted....




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Lamb

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God initiates, God fulfills.

God the Holy Spirit draws the parents to bring their children for baptism. God baptizes that child. God fulfills all promises connected to baptism.

It's that simple.
 

Josiah

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God initiates, God fulfills.

God the Holy Spirit draws the parents to bring their children for baptism. God baptizes that child. God fulfills all promises connected to baptism.

It's that simple.


SIMPLE for a monergist! Read post 57.


Lamm, you don't start from the standpoint of the radical synergists who hold that God never does just DO and BLESS but dead man has to do the first step, take the initiative, and then COOPERATE. For the synerist, how can one "too young" DO the things necessary to take the first step, to take the initiative, to get ball rolling? How can a baby jump through all the hoops necessary? The synergist's answer: He cannot! The monergist's answer: He need not! And how in the world can someone COOPERATE if they are sleeping through the whole thing? The synergist's answer: He cannot! The monergist's answer: He need not.

And there's the other foundational argument of the Anabaptists. They not only impose their radical synergism but also a rubric, namely, that we cannot do anything unless it is clearly exampled and show done in the Bible. Thus the constant, perpetual point: "Where do we see American Baptists being baptized in the Bible????!!!!! We don't! Thus it is dogmatically forbidden, prohibited and disallowed!" The constant questions about what is and is not illustrated as done in the Bible. Thing is, they repudiate this very point and NEVER employ it themselves, so they are demanding we accept a principle they themselves reject and view as wrong, basing their invention on what they themselves hold is a falsehood.

So, we have the Anabaptist reinvention based on two things: Radical synergism (the recipient must DO things first and COOPERATE), God doesn't just freely give anything (a foundational theology monergist reject). AND on a principle of praxis that we can't do anything that cannot be shown as always done in the Bible (a principle - including them - reject). So, it's based on a very fundamentally wrong theology and on a very silly principle of practice that they too reject as wrong.

And I remind you: Some of us have gone to some lengths to share MANY Scriptures and to share the historic view, but supporters of the Anabaptist reinvention have consistently ignored and evaded that. Just the perpetual parroting of these two points: the synergistic theology (which we reject) and the false principle of practice (that even they veiw as wrong). Over and and over and over and over and over.....never engaging in any discussion of either point, always evading explanations of the historic view. Look at the threads here at CH, is more proof of this needed?




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MennoSota

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Something Lamm and I (and others with the historic view on baptism) never do. As everyone knows.

The synergistic view is that God can't (or won't) do anything until the recipient does some stuff and then cooperates with God. A very radical form of that synergism is your apologetic for the Anabaptist's reinvention of Baptism. Try reading the post you quoted..

You have perfectly parroted the radically synergistic apologetic as well as the silly rubric that the Anabaptist used for their reinvention. Try reading the post you quoted....




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Your church does it for you. Your church is, at its heart, employing synergism with infant baptism and communion. Claim monergism all you want, but your practice is synergism. Just own it.
 

MennoSota

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SIMPLE for a monergist! Read post 57.


Lamm, you don't start from the standpoint of the radical synergists who hold that God never does just DO and BLESS but dead man has to do the first step, take the initiative, and then COOPERATE. For the synerist, how can one "too young" DO the things necessary to take the first step, to take the initiative, to get ball rolling? How can a baby jump through all the hoops necessary? The synergist's answer: He cannot! The monergist's answer: He need not! And how in the world can someone COOPERATE if they are sleeping through the whole thing? The synergist's answer: He cannot! The monergist's answer: He need not.

And there's the other foundational argument of the Anabaptists. They not only impose their radical synergism but also a rubric, namely, that we cannot do anything unless it is clearly exampled and show done in the Bible. Thus the constant, perpetual point: "Where do we see American Baptists being baptized in the Bible????!!!!! We don't! Thus it is dogmatically forbidden, prohibited and disallowed!" The constant questions about what is and is not illustrated as done in the Bible. Thing is, they repudiate this very point and NEVER employ it themselves, so they are demanding we accept a principle they themselves reject and view as wrong, basing their invention on what they themselves hold is a falsehood.

So, we have the Anabaptist reinvention based on two things: Radical synergism (the recipient must DO things first and COOPERATE), God doesn't just freely give anything (a foundational theology monergist reject). AND on a principle of praxis that we can't do anything that cannot be shown as always done in the Bible (a principle - including them - reject). So, it's based on a very fundamentally wrong theology and on a very silly principle of practice that they too reject as wrong.

And I remind you: Some of us have gone to some lengths to share MANY Scriptures and to share the historic view, but supporters of the Anabaptist reinvention have consistently ignored and evaded that. Just the perpetual parroting of these two points: the synergistic theology (which we reject) and the false principle of practice (that even they veiw as wrong). Over and and over and over and over and over.....never engaging in any discussion of either point, always evading explanations of the historic view. Look at the threads here at CH, is more proof of this needed?




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But...God doesn't initiate. You, the church, initiate the baptism with the expectation that God will save the infant based upon your initiation. That's synergism.
If you left God to initiate faith, you would wait to baptize until the person's faith is verified.
With believers baptism, God initiates, then baptism is done out of obedience. That's monergism.
 

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But...God doesn't initiate. You, the church, initiate the baptism with the expectation that God will save the infant based upon your initiation. That's synergism.
If you left God to initiate faith, you would wait to baptize until the person's faith is verified.
With believers baptism, God initiates, then baptism is done out of obedience. That's monergism.

God leads the parents to do His will of having the child baptized.
 

Josiah

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"The recipient must DO x,y,z before God can bless" That's radical synergism.
"The recipient must COOPERATE or God cannot bless.' That's radical synergism.
"One below the age of we-won't-tell-you cannot do what he must do so that God can bless him." That's radical synergism.

No. NO ONE is suggesting (and obviously not saying or you'd quote it) that we baptize BECAUSE this forces God to do something. We do it for the same reason faithful Jews circumcised their boys and taught all the Ten Commandments..... why the parents in Egypt killed the lamb and put the blood on the doorpost of their homes.... because they are faithful parents, believing parents. Don't interject radical synergism into this, too. When you bring your children to church, is that so that you are FORCING God to bless them? Perhaps, but that's not why for 2000 years (since at least 69 AD), faithful parents have been bringing their children to Baptism, or why the Jews in Egypt killed the lamb.



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"The recipient must DO x,y,z before God can bless" That's radical synergism.
"The recipient must COOPERATE or God cannot bless.' That's radical synergism.
"One below the age of we-won't-tell-you cannot do what he must do so that God can bless him." That's radical synergism.

No. NO ONE is suggesting (and obviously not saying or you'd quote it) that we baptize BECAUSE this forces God to do something. We do it for the same reason faithful Jews circumcised their boys and taught all the Ten Commandments..... why the parents in Egypt killed the lamb and put the blood on the doorpost of their homes.... because they are faithful parents, believing parents. Don't interject radical synergism into this, too. When you bring your children to church, is that so that you are FORCING God to bless them? Perhaps, but that's not why for 2000 years (since at least 69 AD), faithful parents have been bringing their children to Baptism, or why the Jews in Egypt killed the lamb.



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The Jews heard the good news of "This promise is for you and your children" that baptism provides and believed it. Not once did they consider baptism a work they were doing to please God, it's always been about God providing for His people throughout scriptures.
 

MennoSota

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God leads the parents to do His will of having the child baptized.
This is just wishful thinking.
We have established that the Bible gives no command to baptize new borns or infants.
We have established that the concept of infant baptism is created from arguing the cultural understanding of the word, household.
We see very clearly in the Bible that repentance comes before baptism.

What you are doing is projecting a dogma, you have been taught, onto and into the Bible. You are then declaring that God leads the parents to do His will. But, (and this is a huge but) But, the parents would never ever have reason to conceive of baptizing their children by reading the Bible. The only reason they baptize their child is because....your church tells them to do it. Your church creates a mysticism around infant baptism. Your church tells them that their child will receive faith and the Holy Spirit upon the child being baptized. Your church...
The Bible doesn't declare any of the declarations about infant baptism. It doesn't say anything about an infant receiving faith and the Holy Spirit when the infant is baptized.
Now... that's the point of the OP. The Bible provides zero references to infant baptism. Therefore, if a parent just reads the Bible and never attends any church, that parent would never perform an infant baptism on their child. They would have no reason to do so because the Bible would never have given them a reason to do so.
 

MennoSota

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"The recipient must DO x,y,z before God can bless" That's radical synergism.
"The recipient must COOPERATE or God cannot bless.' That's radical synergism.
"One below the age of we-won't-tell-you cannot do what he must do so that God can bless him." That's radical synergism.

No. NO ONE is suggesting (and obviously not saying or you'd quote it) that we baptize BECAUSE this forces God to do something. We do it for the same reason faithful Jews circumcised their boys and taught all the Ten Commandments..... why the parents in Egypt killed the lamb and put the blood on the doorpost of their homes.... because they are faithful parents, believing parents. Don't interject radical synergism into this, too. When you bring your children to church, is that so that you are FORCING God to bless them? Perhaps, but that's not why for 2000 years (since at least 69 AD), faithful parents have been bringing their children to Baptism, or why the Jews in Egypt killed the lamb.



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You are saying...But. You are the radical synergist in the equation. You are saying that by baptizing an infant you are moving God to give the child faith and the Holy Spirit. If you didn't baptize the infant...they wouldn't have faith or the Holy Spirit. You are the synergist in the equation, Josiah.
Your church is implementing synergism.
 

Josiah

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You are saying that by baptizing an infant you are moving God to give the child faith and the Holy Spirit. If you didn't baptize the infant...they wouldn't have faith or the Holy Spirit.


I'm always aware you know what are you posting is wrong when you don't quote me. I'd say it again - as I have countless times before - QUOTE ME SAYING THAT. But of course, you won't. And we both know why.


AGAIN, bringing our children to baptism is no more synergistic or "FORCING God to do something" than you bringing your children to church.... or the faithful parents in Egypt who sacrificed the Lamb and put it on the doorframe of their homes. What IS synergistic is the argument, "God can't bless if the recipient hasn't done x,y,z FIRST.... if the recipient is too young... if the recipient sleeps through the whole thing." Synergistic questions such as "How can a person under the age of we-won't-tell-you DO the ___________ they GOTTA do so that God can do something for them?"


Read post 57, 63 and 67.





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I'm always aware you know what are you posting is wrong when you don't quote me. I'd say it again - as I have countless times before - QUOTE ME SAYING THAT. But of course, you won't. And we both know why.

Read post 57 and 67.




You are the synergist in the equation, Josiah.
Your church is implementing synergism.
Lamm has openly stated that God gives faith and the Holy Spirit when a child is baptized. Do you disagree with her? Does nothing happen in infant baptism?
 
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RichWh1

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God leads the parents to do His will of having the child baptized.

It is God’s will that all come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth
Nowhere does God say it is His will that infants be baptized.
 

Josiah

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Nowhere does God say it is His will that infants be baptized.


I wouldn't dispute that. Of course. nowhere does God says His will is for Americans or Baptiists or fat people or smart people or blond-haired people to be baptized. And nowhere does God say that that only those who FIRST wept adequate buckets of tears in repentance and FIRST attained their won't-tell-you-which birthday and FIRST adequately proved they are among the Elect are to be baptized and all other are forbidden.


See posts 57, 63, and 67
 

atpollard

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AGAIN, bringing our children to baptism is no more synergistic or "FORCING God to do something" than you bringing your children to church.... or the faithful parents in Egypt who sacrificed the Lamb and put it on the doorframe of their homes.
Blood on doorposts ... commanded by God in Exodus 12
Bringing your Children to church ... commanded by God in Proverbs 22:6, Hebrews 10:19-25, Matthew 28:19-20, Matthew 19:13-14
Baptizing your children whether they believe or not ... commanded by ????????? in ?????????
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

The "answer" is yet another Anabaptist invention (not to derail this discussion to that!): "God doesn't hold those under the age of we-won't-say ACCOUNTABLE." It's the Anabaptist invention of "Age of Accountability." They don't deny that those under that mysterious, never-disclosed age "sin" (well, some do) but exclusively for those under the 'wont-tell-you' age, God lays aside His justice and just winks. Thus, the wages of sin is death doesn't apply to those under the won't-tell-you-what age. No salvation is needed. Now SOME (usually not the Anabaptist) will say the faith of their PARENTS (especially mother) saves them vicariously but again, that's not an Anabaptist/Baptist dogma, "God winks at sin for those under the won't-tell-y0u-which age so they don't need no forgiveness, salvation, Jesus."


The Anabaptists invented all this stuff NOT because of some Scripture they claim every Christian for over 1500 years never notice (or just badly interpreted) BUT because they were radical synergists, and they made Baptism "jibe" with that (in order to be correct). The whole idea that God could bless someone who had done nothing and slept through the whole thing was offensive to them, laughable to them,HAD to be heresy - and Baptism needed to be viewed very differently. To them, God does NOTHING without the recipient taking the first step and in that sense earning or bringing about God's response.... so the point was made (it's kinda logical, assuming radical synergism): "How can one under the age of we-won't-tell-you DO the x,y,z that is required before God will do something for them?" They ask, "How can one DO the x,y,z that is needed to start things if that one is too "young" to DO that (however young "too young" is, we won't say)?" AND "How can they be cooperating with God if they sleep through the whole thing, for heaven's sake!?" Synergists MUST have the recipient take the first step.... MUST have the recipient cooperating in the process. It's the whole point of synergism, the recipient DOING, God just responding to what they first DO and continue to DO. Sincerely, Lamm, this is going right over your head because you are a monergist.


The Anabaptists not only were raging synergists but also held to a very odd rubric (one they rejected and repudiated but insisted on anyway), namely, "We cannot do anything unless it is illustrated as done that way in the Bible, and are forbidden to do anything that is not so illustrated in the Bible." They used this against ANYTHING that Catholics or Lutherans or Anglicans did that seemed monergistic to them or just "too Catholic." "Where was THAT done in the Bible?" Where do you see people crossing themselves in the Bible? You don't, so it is forbidden and wrong and sinful and to be forbidden!!!" They had a long, long list of things that they dogmatically prohibited because "it's never seen in the Bible." They made a huge point about "Children baptized" too, asking ENDLESSLY, "Where do you see children baptized in the Bible?" YOU DON'T - so it's wrong, forbidden, prohibited, "Catholic." SO much of the Anabaptist obsession with getting rid of Catholic practices flows from this premise. And, as I'm sure you noticed, so much of modern Baptist apologetics on this does, as well. Of course, the premise is absurd. And they never abide by it - not even just with baptism. I've posted a few times to show the illogic, the silliness of this whole rubric and shown that NO Baptist actually believes this or does this. They are basing the argument on something they themselves hold is false and invalid (and never employ themselves).


... to the raging synergist, this reinvention of Baptism makes a certain sense. Thus their constant mantra: "How can those under the age of we-won't-tell-you DO _________?" (fill in the blank with whatever, the assumption of synergism is the same). And with the absurd, laughable rubric they themselves repudiate and never use, there is a certain point,too. Thus their constant, endless, mind-numbing, "Where in the Bible do you EVER see an American Baptist being baptized? HUH? Answer the question!!!! It's YOU DON'T! So it's forbidden, it's prohibited, it's against Scripture!" Sound familiar? Gets mind-numbing.


Friend, in my latest thread to share this historic view, I begin with the monergism point and reject the synergistic one. And I address the silliness of founding a whole apologetic on a principle Baptists repudiate as wrong and never use. Remember too, some of us have dedicated a lot of time to conveying the historic view - and it's ALWAYS entirely ignored; those with the reconstruction tradition always evade/ignore it. Consider that. It's a falsehood to say "the historic folks won't discuss this, don't give Scripture" it's that they avoid it.



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Blood on doorposts ... commanded by God in Exodus 12
Bringing your Children to church ... commanded by God in Proverbs 22:6, Hebrews 10:19-25, Matthew 28:19-20, Matthew 19:13-14
Baptizing your children whether they believe or not ... commanded by ????????? in ?????????


So, you believe that bringing your children to worship is synergistic and means you thereby DEMAND God does certain things BECAUSE the child did x,y,z? THAT was the accusation to me; that the act of bringing children to Baptism is synergistic and means I DEMAND God do certain things (even causing it). I simply said the poster was confusing being faithful parents with being synergists. BUT insisting that God cannot do anything in Baptism BECAUSE the recipient has not yet DONE what is necessary for God to bless, that those "too young" CANNOT do what they must do for God to act, THAT seems synergistic to me. The whole "too young" argument is a synergistic one. The "be faithful parents" is not. The Jewish parents in Egypt killed the lamb because they were faithful and loving parents, not because they believed their children must DO things in order for God to be able to bless them (even physically save them)and their chidlren must COOPERATE or God won't do anything. Indeed, I suspect some of children saved from the Last Plague slept through the whole thing, but we can't say one way or the other.




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I wouldn't dispute that. Of course. nowhere does God says His will is for Americans or Baptiists or fat people or smart people or blond-haired people to be baptized. And nowhere does God say that that only those who FIRST wept adequate buckets of tears in repentance and FIRST attained their won't-tell-you-which birthday and FIRST adequately proved they are among the Elect are to be baptized and all other are forbidden.


See posts 57, 63, and 67

Read my post out of context!! If you’re going to quote me quote me in toto!
I said it is God’s will that all come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth!!

I noticed that AT Pollard quoted Scripture and all you did was give opinion!!
 

atpollard

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So, you believe that bringing your children to worship is synergistic and means you thereby DEMAND God does certain things BECAUSE the child did x,y,z?
Nope.

THAT was the accusation to me; that the act of bringing children to Baptism is synergistic and means I DEMAND God do certain things (even causing it).
The accusation is not completely true, but it is also not completely false. You have never made the claim, but you have also avoided answering the question.

Does baptizing a baby actually DO anything, and if so then WHAT?

Lamm has stated that baptism saves (not in that exact word, but all of the things necessary for salvation are accomplished by God simultaneously with baptism). She also stated that “God baptizes”. Right or wrong, her answer and your avoidance is leaving that as the Lutheran position as seen by non Lutherans (who have nothing else to judge by).


I simply said the poster was confusing being faithful parents with being synergists. BUT insisting that God cannot do anything in Baptism BECAUSE the recipient has not yet DONE what is necessary for God to bless, that those "too young" CANNOT do what they must do for God to act, THAT seems synergistic to me.
Believe me, everyone understands your opinions.

Do you understand that the Baptist argument is not “God cannot do anything because ...”, rather the argument is that “God has not yet chosen to do anything, therefore ...”. You are baptizing a baby because God CAN save them. We are waiting to baptize a believer because God HAS saved them. The “confess” and “repent” and “believe” are not the human effort needed to unlock the power of God’s salvation (which would be synergism but is not what Credobaptist believe), rather they are the “first fruit” of the new heart and the work of the Holy Spirit in someone that God “foreknew”, “predestined”, “called”, “justified”, and “glorified”. As was the case in Acts 2, when God has pierced their heart, then it is for the church to call them to “repent and be baptized” and they will “receive the Holy Spirit”. There is nothing synergistic about it. We are merely “waiting on the Lord” rather than leading the charge by baptizing those that have not even heard the gospel.

Whether YOUR baptism is monergistic or synergistic depends on what YOU believe happens when a priest sprinkles water on an infant.
I can’t answer what YOU believe.


The whole "too young" argument is a synergistic one. The "be faithful parents" is not. The Jewish parents in Egypt killed the lamb because they were faithful and loving parents, not because they believed their children must DO things in order for God to be able to bless them (even physically save them)and their chidlren must COOPERATE or God won't do anything. Indeed, I suspect some of children saved from the Last Plague slept through the whole thing, but we can't say one way or the other.
My point in the previous post is that I am aware of scripture where God clearly COMMANDED people to kill the lamb to save the child, and I am aware of scripture that specifically COMMANDS parents to train their children and allow them to come to Jesus and to assemble with other Christians. What I am not aware of is a specific COMMAND to baptize children. This does not make baptizing children forbidden, rather it means that comparing the lamb on the post that God COMMANDED to baptizing children that God DID NOT COMMAND is an “apples to oranges” comparison. One is “commanded” and the other is “not forbidden” ... those are not the same thing.
 
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RichWh1

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The Book of Acts shows multiple times that after a person believed that person was then baptized. Baptism did not save the person. Faith did.
 

hobie

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Very simply there is no age but what is important is the ability to make a decision to accept Christ. All this back and forth over ages when age really isnt as important as can they make an informed decision? It has more to do with maturity of the child I think

Amen, what is basically the 'Age of Accountability', when they discern and understand what it means to repent from sin and accept Christ.
 
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