1 John 4:19-21 We love because he first loved us

[NewCreation435]

19 "We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."
1 John 4:19-21

What verse 19 tells me is that my love is not what initiated my being drawn to God, but his love is what occurred first. In fact, my flesh is hostile to God. Just as it says in Romans 8:7 "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, or can it do so." Yet, by the Holy Spirit's power I can now love the things that God loves and have communion with God and with other believers. In fact, this is evidence that I am truly his that I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, numerous times John mentions this that this is proof of a transformed life.

So many times when I go into a new church as a visitor I don't feel this love or feel particularly welcome. So, if one of the chief signs that we are his is that we love others then why is it that I don't have a sense of this love many times on this forum or in the church that I have attended and some that I have visited? According to 1 Corinthians 13 that if I don't have love then I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:3

Most of the time today I try to keep my distance from believers in the church because i have had a lot of negative experiences in the church with people who gossip. It makes it hard to want to be a part of it.

 

[MennoSota]

19 "We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."
1 John 4:19-21

What verse 19 tells me is that my love is not what initiated my being drawn to God, but his love is what occurred first. In fact, my flesh is hostile to God. Just as it says in Romans 8:7 "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, or can it do so." Yet, by the Holy Spirit's power I can now love the things that God loves and have communion with God and with other believers. In fact, this is evidence that I am truly his that I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, numerous times John mentions this that this is proof of a transformed life.

So many times when I go into a new church as a visitor I don't feel this love or feel particularly welcome. So, if one of the chief signs that we are his is that we love others then why is it that I don't have a sense of this love many times on this forum or in the church that I have attended and some that I have visited? According to 1 Corinthians 13 that if I don't have love then I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:3

Most of the time today I try to keep my distance from believers in the church because i have had a lot of negative experiences in the church with people who gossip. It makes it hard to want to be a part of it.

jsimms, you sound like a particular baptist. Election, predestination and assurance. Sounds good to me.

 

[MennoSota]

19 "We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."
1 John 4:19-21

What verse 19 tells me is that my love is not what initiated my being drawn to God, but his love is what occurred first. In fact, my flesh is hostile to God. Just as it says in Romans 8:7 "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, or can it do so." Yet, by the Holy Spirit's power I can now love the things that God loves and have communion with God and with other believers. In fact, this is evidence that I am truly his that I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, numerous times John mentions this that this is proof of a transformed life.

So many times when I go into a new church as a visitor I don't feel this love or feel particularly welcome. So, if one of the chief signs that we are his is that we love others then why is it that I don't have a sense of this love many times on this forum or in the church that I have attended and some that I have visited? According to 1 Corinthians 13 that if I don't have love then I gain nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:3

Most of the time today I try to keep my distance from believers in the church because i have had a lot of negative experiences in the church with people who gossip. It makes it hard to want to be a part of it.

To a second point. Feelings are fleeting. They change in less than a minute. Our society teaches that truth is what you feel (postmodernism). God says, "I am the truth." God does not change.
Consider that you may be setting up a spirit of judgment because people don't make you feel the way you want them to make you feel. Perhaps you harbor a selfishness that you are blind to it's effects.
When you go to church, who do you go to worship? If no human engages you, can you still engage in worship with God?
When I go to worship, I remind myself of Hebrews 12:22-24.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

[NewCreation435]

To a second point. Feelings are fleeting. They change in less than a minute. Our society teaches that truth is what you feel (postmodernism). God says, "I am the truth." God does not change.
Consider that you may be setting up a spirit of judgment because people don't make you feel the way you want them to make you feel. Perhaps you harbor a selfishness that you are blind to it's effects.
When you go to church, who do you go to worship? If no human engages you, can you still engage in worship with God?
When I go to worship, I remind myself of Hebrews 12:22-24.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

I never said that I was basing truth off of feelings. I am aware that feelings are fleeting and that sometimes our flesh is the real force behind those feelings instead of the spirit.
I also realize that I can worship even when not feeling welcome. That really isn't my question. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where there are numerous churches. I guess my question is that if love for other believers is the hallmark of who we are then why does it seem so often missing in the church? Why does it seem so often missing from this forum?
And yes I acknowledge my part in that, that I am hesitant to get involved often in a church because of fear of being hurt once again. I have gone to some churches for a short period of time only to leave before people have a chance to get to know me.

 

[MennoSota]

I never said that I was basing truth off of feelings. I am aware that feelings are fleeting and that sometimes our flesh is the real force behind those feelings instead of the spirit.
I also realize that I can worship even when not feeling welcome. That really isn't my question. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where there are numerous churches. I guess my question is that if love for other believers is the hallmark of who we are then why does it seem so often missing in the church? Why does it seem so often missing from this forum?
And yes I acknowledge my part in that, that I am hesitant to get involved often in a church because of fear of being hurt once again. I have gone to some churches for a short period of time only to leave before people have a chance to get to know me.

Perhaps you misunderstand love. When Jesus condemned the Pharisees and Saducees, was he expressing love or was that unloving? When a brother or sister corrects a person who has created a false image of God, is that loving or unloving?
Paul addresses a church that wanted to feel good when he wrote to the church in Corinth. He desired prophecy, which edifies and convicts, over tongues, which lifts up the person speaking in tongues.
Love is not a feeling or always something that makes the recipient feel good.
1 Corinthians 14:20-25
Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

 

[NewCreation435]

Perhaps you misunderstand love. When Jesus condemned the Pharisees and Saducees, was he expressing love or was that unloving? When a brother or sister corrects a person who has created a false image of God, is that loving or unloving?
Paul addresses a church that wanted to feel good when he wrote to the church in Corinth. He desired prophecy, which edifies and convicts, over tongues, which lifts up the person speaking in tongues.
Love is not a feeling or always something that makes the recipient feel good.
1 Corinthians 14:20-25
Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

I'm not confused about feelings nor misunderstanding what love is. It is remarkable that most churches in this area are dying. You would think they would embrace and be excited when a visitor shows up.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not confused about feelings nor misunderstanding what love is. It is remarkable that most churches in this area are dying. You would think they would embrace and be excited when a visitor shows up.

I cannot speak to your area nor to your experience. If they are Minnesota Lutherans then they'll be passive aggressive. (Minnesota nice: Big hello. Quick, turn around and eat lutefisk with your kin.)