New Forgiveness

[Lamb]

In another thread Michael wrote:

Amen on the 'turning to God' part! I get deeper into that in Part 4 of this series.
And yes, there is forgiveness of our past sins when we come to Christ Jesus. And if we slip up we can come before the Throne and seek forgiveness. But the New Testament makes no provision for continued sin in those who claim to believe in Jesus.
As with "salvation", "forgiveness" is the beginning of our journey. As the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to test and prove Him, so too does the Spirit bring us into our own personal wilderness to "test and try us to see what is in our hearts, to know whether we will obey God or not."

My question for this thread is where does this forgiveness come from then after you sin (after you come to Jesus as you say) if not from Jesus' death on the cross?

God demanded a blood sacrifice for all sins. How do you reconcile yourself then to God if not by the cross?

 

[hedrick]

The NT obviously makes provisions for sin in Christians. 1 John 1:8-10 is one of the many places. It does base forgiveness on Christ, as of course Paul does.

What topic do you want to talk about? You seem to be asking about the atonement. Is that it? I think the question for Christians isn't where forgiveness comes from. Jesus is clear that God wants to forgive us, and he never says that blood is needed. Rather, it's where the new life comes from.

The Bible doesn't actually say that a blood sacrifice is needed for forgiveness, at least not as most Christians seem to believe. Indeed Ps 51:18 and a couple of passages in the prophets reject the idea that blood sacrifice is needed for forgiveness. Hebrews is often quoted in this context, but if you look at Heb 9, you'll see that it's interpreting Jesus' death as a covenant sacrifice more than a sin offering. Similarly in the words of institution, Jesus says his blood is for the new covenant, echoing Ex 24:8. God forgives us freely, as Jesus consistently taught. Christ died to establish the new covenant of Jer 31:31, per Rom 6. This brings us new life.

Yes, I think there's a distinction between God forgiving and new life, as you see in Rom 3:25: "whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26*it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus." God can pass over sins, although I think repentance is necessary for that. (It's interesting, however, that in a couple of cases Jesus forgave sins and repentance followed.) What Christ's death and resurrection do is set us into a right relationship (justify) and bring us into the new covenant. God shows his righteousness -- his commitment to honor his covenant by redeeming us -- by not just passing over sin but by fixing it.

 

[Michael]

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries."
- Heb 10:26-27

I find it very sad that so much of the Word of God is not known among church-goers today.
There is ZERO provision made for continued sin among those who claim to believe. When we slip up or struggle with a bondage, we can come humbly before the Throne and if we are striving to repent we can receive forgiveness. But as Paul clearly wrote -

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
5 For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His."
- Rom 6:1-5

Many are taught that God no longer sees sin in someone who claims to be a 'Christian' because He now sees them through the Blood or through Christ or some other unscriptural phrase. This type of 'teaching' will bring only harm upon the hearers, and destruction in that Day when they stand before the Lord and "give an account" for all that we "have done in the body." (see Heb 4:13, 2Cor 5:10)

Do we realize what Paul is saying above... "a Resurrection like His"? That is exactly what that means! The First Resurrection saints will come forth and immortal divine and physical beings in the image of God, with the same power and authority of Jesus the King of kings. This promise does not, and will not, come to a 'sinner saved by grace' who has resigned themselves to being one who is 'not perfect, just forgiven.' No, this comes only to "he who overcomes" and "walks worthy" of their calling and has "striven against sin unto the shedding of their own blood." (Heb 12:4)

This is all Bible. I have added nothing to God's Word; whereas the bulk of modern preaching has taken away a lot of what God said, especially His commands given through Jesus Christ.

And, friends, you can quote all the verses you find concerning the love and forgiveness of Jesus, and to each I will say Amen! But they do not stand alone from the plethora of passages I've referred to. If we must ignore hundreds of passages to believe a doctrine, then we must reasses what we believe; for the Word remains Eternal and God does not change.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries."
- Heb 10:26-27

I find it very sad that so much of the Word of God is not known among church-goers today.
There is ZERO provision made for continued sin among those who claim to believe. When we slip up or struggle with a bondage, we can come humbly before the Throne and if we are striving to repent we can receive forgiveness. But as Paul clearly wrote -

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."
5 For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His."
- Rom 6:1-5

Many are taught that God no longer sees sin in someone who claims to be a 'Christian' because He now sees them through the Blood or through Christ or some other unscriptural phrase. This type of 'teaching' will bring only harm upon the hearers, and destruction in that Day when they stand before the Lord and "give an account" for all that we "have done in the body." (see Heb 4:13, 2Cor 5:10)

Do we realize what Paul is saying above... "a Resurrection like His"? That is exactly what that means! The First Resurrection saints will come forth and immortal divine and physical beings in the image of God, with the same power and authority of Jesus the King of kings. This promise does not, and will not, come to a 'sinner saved by grace' who has resigned themselves to being one who is 'not perfect, just forgiven.' No, this comes only to "he who overcomes" and "walks worthy" of their calling and has "striven against sin unto the shedding of their own blood." (Heb 12:4)

This is all Bible. I have added nothing to God's Word; whereas the bulk of modern preaching has taken away a lot of what God said, especially His commands given through Jesus Christ.

And, friends, you can quote all the verses you find concerning the love and forgiveness of Jesus, and to each I will say Amen! But they do not stand alone from the plethora of passages I've referred to. If we must ignore hundreds of passages to believe a doctrine, then we must reasses what we believe; for the Word remains Eternal and God does not change.

Quoting scripture (an objective measure), then presenting an interpretation (subjective) is hardly "adding nothing to God's word". One must weigh the subjective against the objective by careful study of the conclusion. Does it accurately represent what is seen by the measure it purports to represent? In this case I would say "no". The one who has "(received) knowledge of the truth" is one who has rejected the gospel outright after following it for some time. In this case, the Hebrew believers had returned to the rudiments of the Law of Moses and rejected the blood sacrifice offered them through Christ, relying on the sacrifices under the law for forgiving their sins.

Likewise, the believer who rejects Christ outright, who has received "knowledge of the truth" - who has been fully educated and has an intellectual understanding, and even may have made an intellectual assent to it, but eventually rejects that truth has no other hope.

As for the one who is "not perfect, just forgiven" as you say - what other state should we be in? Perfection by way of our forgiveness? Good luck with that. Lemme know how this post strikes you, then tell me how perfect you might be in your heart

 

[Michael]

Quoting scripture (an objective measure), then presenting an interpretation (subjective) is hardly "adding nothing to God's word". One must weigh the subjective against the objective by careful study of the conclusion. Does it accurately represent what is seen by the measure it purports to represent? In this case I would say "no". The one who has "(received) knowledge of the truth" is one who has rejected the gospel outright after following it for some time. In this case, the Hebrew believers had returned to the rudiments of the Law of Moses and rejected the blood sacrifice offered them through Christ, relying on the sacrifices under the law for forgiving their sins.

Likewise, the believer who rejects Christ outright, who has received "knowledge of the truth" - who has been fully educated and has an intellectual understanding, and even may have made an intellectual assent to it, but eventually rejects that truth has no other hope.

As for the one who is "not perfect, just forgiven" as you say - what other state should we be in? Perfection by way of our forgiveness? Good luck with that. Lemme know how this post strikes you, then tell me how perfect you might be in your heart

Thanks for your reply brother.

One of the biggest issues seems to be that most of the church today believes that ‘forgiveness’ is the ultimate goal, and that a profession of faith assures ‘heaven’ when we die.
The canon of Scripture sets forth neither of these firmly held tenets of modern “Christianity.”
Men were absolutely “forgiven” of a sin under the Old Covenant when they presented their sacrifice. They did not ‘look forward to the Cross’ as is often taught. No Bible for that. The New Covenant is not a better or eternal forgiveness, but rather a “deliverance” from sin that is available to those who “walk according to the Spirit.” And ‘accepting Jesus’ does not eternally forgive us. Again, no Bible for that. Plus, to bring untransformed sinners-saved-by-grace into the Kingdom would defile it immediately. No, Jesus came to “set the captives free” FROM their sin, not forgive them IN their sin.

Never said I was perfect. I know I am not, but if I think for a single moment that God has not called me (us) to perfection (Matt 5:48), then I have missed out already, just as the bulk of Israel in the wilderness. They were “saved” and promised the Land, yet because they failed to walk righteously their “bodies were strewn in the wilderness.” I often get falsely accused of claiming I am perfect already just for preaching the Truth of God. God has revealed the purpose for such attacks. Along with guilt often comes accusations against the messenger of God’s Word. Happened all the time with the Prophets and Apostles. And God said His messengers would be “hated even as He was hated” by the religious folk who refused to actually “repent” and “turn from their wicked ways.” Many times in the Bible, God rebukes those who preached “peace, peace” to the people and declared “no harm shall come upon you” even though you still walked according to the appetites of their flesh. And sadly, that is what we hear much today… “Jesus loves sinners” and just wants them to accept His sacrifice to God on the Cross, instead of “picking up their own cross daily”, “putting to death the deeds of the flesh”, even “striving against sin to the shedding of their own blood” and “walking worthy of their calling, the Gospel, the Kingdom, of Christ and of God.”

There is only One interpreter of God’s Word, and that is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to “guide us into all Truth" and “bring to remembrance all that Jesus taught.” This same Spirit gives utterance to those God has called to teach His Word, and they “speak as the oracles of God.”

As Paul & Peter & John, I am confident in what I speak. There are others who teach likewise. And we have the great bulk of the Scripture to back up and confirm the words we share.
Some will receive. Many will not. That’s up to God and the individual.
We plant & water and let God bring the increase in His time and way.

I’m here to encourage the saints to press in that none of us may miss out on what God has in store for “those who overcome.” The inheritance of Creation, the saved of the nations and “all the works of God’s hands” is for those who are truly “conformed into the image of God’s Firstborn Son.” The great masses of people will be their inheritance.

Oh glory! Let us not settle for anything less that God’s great plan and purpose, His goal in Christ for all creation!

"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
- Heb 5:12-14

 

[MennoSota]

“Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Heb.*9:22).

-*Hebrews 9:21–22

Jesus of Nazareth has had such an impact on the world that most people, Christian or not, offer at least a grudging appreciation of His character. Fewer, however, are willing to talk about His death. The idea that Jesus had to die is a thought downplayed, denied, or ignored by all except those who believe the witness of the New*Testament.

The original audience of the book of Hebrews also lived in a culture that denied the necessity of the death of Christ. Many said that His death proved that He was not who He claimed to be. Therefore, the author of Hebrews reminds his audience of the necessity of the death of Christ. The shedding of blood was necessary under the old covenant, even though animal blood could not perfect the conscience (9:9b–10). So too is the shedding of blood necessary under the new covenant, though the blood Christ shed is infinitely more purifying than the blood of goats and bulls (vv.*13–14).

If the old covenant was inaugurated by means of blood (vv. 18–20), then so too was blood required for the dedication of the new covenant. Furthering this point, today’s passage tells us that almost everything was cleansed with blood under the Law and that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (v.*22).

This might seem to introduce a problem for us. Is it a contradiction to say that not everything is purified with blood but then to say that without it there is no forgiveness of sin? Furthermore, we know that in some cases, a bloodless grain offering could atone for sin under the Law (Lev. 5:11–13). Does the author know what he is talking about? The answer is yes, of course. Even though the Law does mention some cleansing rites apart from sacrifice (for example,*Num. 19:11–12), we must remember that once a year, on the Day of Atonement, blood was offered for the sins of the entire nation (Lev. 16). As such, all of the cleansing rites of the old covenant were subsumed under the absolute necessity of a blood sacrifice once every year. Likewise, the grain offerings that in some cases could atone for sin were ultimately effectual only because of this annual, “bloody” event. The shedding of blood was absolutely necessary for atonement under the old covenant, and, as we are to infer from these verses, death is also absolutely necessary for atonement in the new*covenant.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/without-blood/