HOLD FAST

Andrew

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This thread is on holding fast. Michael teaches that God cannot hold us fast if we don't obey God. He teaches that believers can lose their salvation if they don't merit God's expectation of obedience.
I reject legalism that places one's salvation in the hands of man rather than one's salvation being held in the hands of God.
Scripture is very clear regarding God holding His sheep fast and protecting them.
If people wish to demand that they wrestle control of their salvation away from God and place their faith in themselves to please God, I will stand against such teaching. If those at CH are hell-bent on holding such doctrines, I will hand them over to God and let them suffer in misery as they worry about being holy enough.
Myself, I will live in the amazing grace of God's atoning work through Christ Jesus. I will rejoice that God will do the work of sanctification in my life and purify me according to His ordained will.
My understanding is that we mature in perfection daily in the Holy Spirit but its highly possible and likely that any ASSEMBLY of believers may drift as a whole by getting lazy and too caught up in the world that it will eventually render that church useless.
Thus these warning are of value and a wake up call to many churches so that they as an assembly stay focused and not drift off into apostasy, losing generations to come and spreading false teachings abroad...
The Apostles spoke to assemblies not just a single individual, if it were to one individual at a time they would be wasting valuable time.
So Michael probably isn't concerned with any one individual specifically, the point rather is to speak to many (as he did in our forum) so that God may gather one and through that one he may gather many more :)
 
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MennoSota

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My understanding is that we mature in perfection daily in the Holy Spirit but its highly possible and likely that any ASSEMBLY of believers may drift as a whole by getting lazy and too caught up in the world that it will eventually render that church useless.
Thus these warning are of value and a wake up call to many churches so that they as an assembly stay focused and not drift off into apostasy, losing generations to come and spreading false teachings abroad...
The Apostles spoke to assemblies not just a single individual, if it were to one individual at a time they would be wasting valuable time.
So Michael probably isn't concerned with any one individual specifically, the point rather is to speak to many (as he did in our forum) so that God may gather one :)
You are bringing up a corporate call to the church in regard to obedience. That has nothing to do with salvation. It has everything to do with the effectiveness of a church.
When Michael has brought up holding fast it has been regarding the eternal soul of the individual.
 

Andrew

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You are bringing up a corporate call to the church in regard to obedience. That has nothing to do with salvation. It has everything to do with the effectiveness of a church.
When Michael has brought up holding fast it has been regarding the eternal soul of the individual.

Well how would you explain the verses on holding fast?
 

Michael

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My understanding is that we mature in perfection daily in the Holy Spirit but its highly possible and likely that any ASSEMBLY of believers may drift as a whole by getting lazy and too caught up in the world that it will eventually render that church useless.
Thus these warning are of value and a wake up call to many churches so that they as an assembly stay focused and not drift off into apostasy, losing generations to come and spreading false teachings abroad...
The Apostles spoke to assemblies not just a single individual, if it were to one individual at a time they would be wasting valuable time.
So Michael probably isn't concerned with any one individual specifically, the point rather is to speak to many (as he did in our forum) so that God may gather one and through that one he may gather many more :)

Thank you brother Andrew. You and I and others see what the Apostles clearly warned about in their Epistles. They saw even then those who were "receiving the grace of God in vain" believing that their 'salvation' was the end of their faith rather than the very beginning. The writers, by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, taught the conditions of receiving the fullness of the promises of God, knowing that 'being saved' was not the guarantee of anything other than the opportunity to follow Jesus and obey God. If 1Cor10:1-12, Rom 11:19-23, Heb 10:26-39, (and all the passages I quote in the essay, not to mention many more) teach us anything, it is that there are absolutely conditions on us receiving the promises of God. Yes, salvation is free; but the promises have to be attained to.
Honestly, looking at many in the church today who are "saved"... if that is the best God can do, than I'll pass. To have all these people, just as they are - saved & forgiven but untransformed by the fire and necessary trials & testing that God sends - in His Kingdom would defile the entire thing in one hour. No Thanks.

If the Apostle Paul had to strive to attain to his calling, knowing even that he could be disqualified, how can we possibly think we have all the promises of God awaiting us because we simply raised our hand and said a prayer. No. The churches at large today are in deep deception. I've seen in continually for many years.
We'll be hated for speaking Truth, brother Andrew; but so were the Prophets, Apostles and the Lord Jesus Himself; so let's count ourselves in good company. Indeed Christ Jesus CAN keep us... IF we hold fast to Him. And THAT is Bible! ;)
 

MennoSota

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There is no adopted child of God who has been graciously adopted in vain. God does not make mistakes. God does not choose to give a person faith and then remove his gift. God does not choose his sheep and then let them perish.
God keeps every one whom He chooses. God sanctifies everyone He chooses. God remains faithful.
I pity the person who views God with such a low view as to teach that God is incapable of protecting and keeping his children.
I will trust in my God. Let Michael trust in himself if that is his wish.
 

Michael

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For any following along on this thread ( or any others I've been posting in), if I don't respond to the attacks of one 'MennoSota' it's because I'm unable read his rebuttals. I was informed of the 'ignore' feature on this site, and decided to use it for this fellow. I've no time for drama and debate. I thank God for the spiritual gift of "self-control" which I'm finally getting a little grasp on after over a half-century! (The "old" me none of you would have liked. Thank God for His deliverance, mercy and grace!)
God has given me Truth to share and so I post as He leads. If one doesn't agree, it is very easy to not read, or utilize the 'ignore' feature to not see my posts.

I love being in the Word, having fellowship with fervent saints and discussing the deeper things of the Kingdom of God with any who can hold conversation as an adult. But unfortunately, that is not always possible. As Paul said - "If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." (Rom 12:18)
And Jesus, Himself, taught His closest disciples -
"And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet." - Matt 10:12-14

As I find myself saying increasingly lately... knowing that the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus, Himself, were greatly persecuted, envied and hated for speaking as the oracles of God, I consider myself in good company. ;)
May each of us desire to find ourselves in such company.

Peace & Blessings to all who walk with Jesus,
Michael
 

Andrew

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There is no adopted child of God who has been graciously adopted in vain. God does not make mistakes. God does not choose to give a person faith and then remove his gift. God does not choose his sheep and then let them perish.
God keeps every one whom He chooses. God sanctifies everyone He chooses. God remains faithful.
I pity the person who views God with such a low view as to teach that God is incapable of protecting and keeping his children.
I will trust in my God. Let Michael trust in himself if that is his wish.
Yes but how does "Hold fast" fit into your narrative?

I know obedience is the working of the Spirit with in me, but it's essential to be taught exactly what obedience is, how else could the Spirit hear if you aren't learned in what God expects of us?

Here is a good example, this girl was taught work salvation and she gets taught some quick scriptural lessons that will transform her, I can tell by her reaction and her character that she is ready to be reborn in the Spirit by God. I believe this man to have been ordained by God to do this great work by obedience to God THROUGH the Holy Spirit and non other.
7 minutes long so let's discern what self works is considered opposed to the works of the Spirit
https://youtu.be/lqEiizuWY4U
 

Michael

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Yes but how does "Hold fast" fit into your narrative?

I know obedience is the working of the Spirit with in me, but it's essential to be taught exactly what obedience is, how else could the Spirit hear if you aren't learned in what God expects of us?

Here is a good example, this girl was taught work salvation and she gets taught some quick scriptural lessons that will transform her, I can tell by her reaction and her character that she is ready to be reborn in the Spirit by God. I believe this man to have been ordained by God to do this great work by obedience to God THROUGH the Holy Spirit and non other.
7 minutes long so let's discern what self works is considered opposed to the works of the Spirit

I truly appreciate you Andrew, and your dedication and love for God is evident. You have tasted of the goodness of God.
What I believe the Lord has been revealing to me these past 20 years, is the difference between being "saved" and truly being "born again"; for these are not synonymous in the Scripture. The modern Christian religion often equates them, but in my study of the written Word I do not find that to be True. "Being saved" is the beginning of our journey, our walk with Jesus. We come to this initial salvation by crying out to the Lord and believing in Him; there are few conditions on "being saved." But if we are to inherit the promises of God, especially those in Revelation 2 & 3, then we must meet the conditions of obedience, righteousness, sacrifice and good works. There is a great 'IF... THEN' principle throughout the Scripture that applies as well to our entering into "Eternal salvation", which is far more than "being saved." Paul wrote to exhort those who had been saved, to continue in the faith (which includes obedience and righteous deeds) if they are to be presented "holy and blameless" before God -

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard." (Col 1:21-23)

I've shared this many times before, and I'm amazed that the church at large cannot see and understand this Truth - 'Never does God judge or reward anyone by their doctrine or what they claim to believe, or their statement of faith. He judges and rewards all men according to our works. (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, and Rev 22:12 to name a few)'
From what Jesus taught, our Eternal destiny is decided based on what we have done in this life: our behavior and our obedience to God's commands given through Christ Jesus.

Modern evangelical & even Pentecostal preaching, being largely man-made, really has no place in their doctrine for a Truth such as this - (speaking of Jesus) "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. " (Heb 5:8-9)

I know some will scream blasphemy at me, but Jesus learned obedience, and became something that He was not before the baby in Bethlehem. Yet, I didn't say this, the Bible says it! And it is absolutely True.

Anyway, before I get too off track here... the point I'm looking at is that beyond "being saved" which one can argue is by faith alone; to receive "eternal salvation" (which is yet to come) we must attain unto it, by our own obedience and righteous deeds. And this "righteousness" is not 'imputed' but actual righteousness: proven only by our works, as the Apostle John clearly wrote in his letter -

"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:7-8

And I've shared a little insight that God gave me on that passage and the Truth that He requires "righteous deeds" if we are to obtain that "eternal salvation."
God's wisdom & understanding to us all.

https://youtu.be/S4VRby3_TVM
 

Andrew

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I truly appreciate you Andrew, and your dedication and love for God is evident. You have tasted of the goodness of God.
What I believe the Lord has been revealing to me these past 20 years, is the difference between being "saved" and truly being "born again"; for these are not synonymous in the Scripture. The modern Christian religion often equates them, but in my study of the written Word I do not find that to be True. "Being saved" is the beginning of our journey, our walk with Jesus. We come to this initial salvation by crying out to the Lord and believing in Him; there are few conditions on "being saved." But if we are to inherit the promises of God, especially those in Revelation 2 & 3, then we must meet the conditions of obedience, righteousness, sacrifice and good works. There is a great 'IF... THEN' principle throughout the Scripture that applies as well to our entering into "Eternal salvation", which is far more than "being saved." Paul wrote to exhort those who had been saved, to continue in the faith (which includes obedience and righteous deeds) if they are to be presented "holy and blameless" before God -

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard." (Col 1:21-23)

I've shared this many times before, and I'm amazed that the church at large cannot see and understand this Truth - 'Never does God judge or reward anyone by their doctrine or what they claim to believe, or their statement of faith. He judges and rewards all men according to our works. (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, and Rev 22:12 to name a few)'
From what Jesus taught, our Eternal destiny is decided based on what we have done in this life: our behavior and our obedience to God's commands given through Christ Jesus.

Modern evangelical & even Pentecostal preaching, being largely man-made, really has no place in their doctrine for a Truth such as this - (speaking of Jesus) "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. " (Heb 5:8-9)

I know some will scream blasphemy at me, but Jesus learned obedience, and became something that He was not before the baby in Bethlehem. Yet, I didn't say this, the Bible says it! And it is absolutely True.

Anyway, before I get too off track here... the point I'm looking at is that beyond "being saved" which one can argue is by faith alone; to receive "eternal salvation" (which is yet to come) we must attain unto it, by our own obedience and righteous deeds. And this "righteousness" is not 'imputed' but actual righteousness: proven only by our works, as the Apostle John clearly wrote in his letter -

"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1John 3:7-8

And I've shared a little insight that God gave me on that passage and the Truth that He requires "righteous deeds" if we are to obtain that "eternal salvation."
God's wisdom & understanding to us all.

https://youtu.be/S4VRby3_TVM
I'm still learning in the Holy Spirit, but without being granted the Spirit -any works I would do would be of no effect and would be self centered and self righteous. Many unlearned church goers "believe" and believe that their works are good but in scripture, believers were asked "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you have believed?" and they were puzzled... so belief without the Holy Spirit is void of any good works for Gods workmanship is not part of you. For me I believed first yes, but I was a thieving shop lifter, I was okay with that because I was told that God forgives and as long as you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior you are free of guilt and worry..
I gradually fell into depression and prescription drug abuse, but I continued reading scripture because I thought it would build me up, the drugs kept me up so I would read throughout the night for hours on end...
It felt good to show off to others how much I read scripture and I truly thought I was doing good works by constantly discussing God and correcting people, my parents would be watching a horror movie and I would switch it to GODtv or something... I would hand out money to people who asked even though it was obvious they were lying... until I would go broke and take my money from parents are steal from stores and return the items for cash...
I could admit I was a sinner and ask God to forgive me or pray the Lords prayer and feel good..
but the habit got worse and worse and I begged God for deliverance, I cried and spoke to him and pleaded and asked him why me? Why am I still so miserable?
He answered me in scripture, I read a verse that implied that I pray that God sends Saints my way... So I did and I continued to read and speak to God, I felt a very very strong presence the more and more I read and would talk to him in despair, I knew he was bathing me spiritually or was preparing me for something... which was surprising as I was a former atheist, now I knew for sure that God is real... so fast forward, I ended up unexpectedly to a church reach out in time square because I was going to spy on my "friend/partner" because she said she was going to a church event but I was suspicious that she was meeting up with a guy there... long story short she was there and people were being prayed over and one of the pastures walked up to me and said "you are here for a reason", tears started flowing and he said "do you accept the Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior"? I said yes, I saw her praying over people and they were laying in the middle of the road!
My heart weighed heavy and I began to cry so hard with a loud moan that would embarrass myself but I couldn't help it.. she went up and hugged me and told me "you have to let go" and I knew exactly what she meant... My knees began to buckle and the team began placing their hands on my head and praying over me, my eyes closed and the tears stopped and I just let go... They carefully laid me down and continued to pray, I had the sensation that my body was being filled entirely with the prayers I heard, its hard to explain really.
I heard someone say, and I believe it was her, to get up... So I opened my eyes as they helped lift me up. The pasture told me that "Christ had already forgiven me,why do you constantly ask for forgiveness? He forgave your sins on the cross, you must take the first step", all of a sudden I realized that everything I had read and remembered from the Bible spoke to me and I understood it clearly.
That step was my walk with God.
I shuttered at the thought of ever even consider stealing again, and of the thought of jealousy, and of lying and disobeying my parents.. I felt kind of shook up but in a good way.
God sent his saints!
They never even asked me to join their church but they did give me their contact if I ever needed anything...
On that day, the person I was died, I felt completely new and my obedience has simply become a way of life, it's not so difficult any more, the chain of bondage was broken... I also know what conviction feels like so it does help me discern and is used for guidance, especially when I was yet a babe in Christ.
There is a growing maturity in my walk, sometimes I slow down but I know that God will never leave my side. He is patience and Love, and He is a consuming fire.
I no longer consider my works as a means to reach or maintain salvation, any works I do are His works ordained, not letting one hand know what the other is doing... Only God sees these works and we may even entertain the Angels, but they are not works of self satisfaction nor do they build me up, I believe it comes with the Gift from God, of his Charity offering so to become a light onto others.
Now just to be clear I am not suggesting that ALL should go through an experience such as mine, it's simply my testimony.
All of his flock hold testimony, when he calls his sheep they hear and follow..
I'm just glad I kept reading the Bible because I could never have become a servant of Christ without knowing his lessons first...
Anyway, this is about the fifth time I have shared my testimony here and I always try to keep it short and sweet lol but that obviously doesn't happen. It's getting late so I'll end it here :)
God bless
 
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