Double Predestination

Andrew

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Predestine is not the same thing as foreordain, that is why the WCF says God PREDESTINES to salvation, and FOREORDAINS to Hell.

God DRAWS to Jesus, God GIVES faith.
Those FOREORDAINED are simply “passed over” and left to reap the harvest of their sinful wills as the reprobate children of the father of lies.

Reread what I posted from the WCF Short Catechism and what MoreCoffee posted from the larger WCF.
Read beyond the one line.
I agree, I don't like the term double predestination one bit, never had. There are some verses that tells us the Potter is Sovereign over his creation and that some he makes in opposition to the ones he makes for goodness... Romans?
Also having mercy and compassion on whom he wills to.
How he hardened Pharaohs heart, or hated Esau before he was born.
 

atpollard

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I always have a copy & paste at hand.

Finally, he teaches us how not only to conquer dangers, temptations, and the allurements of pleasure, but how every year it is necessary for each of us to renew and to rekindle his love of God by the making of holy resolutions. May it please God that this book, the most perfect of its kind in the opinion of contemporaries of the Saint, be read now as it formerly was by practically every one. If this were done, Christian piety certainly would flourish the world over and the Church of God could rejoice in the assurance of a widespread attainment of holiness by her children.

The Treatise on the Love of God, however, is a much more important and significant book than any of the others he published. In this work the saintly Doctor gives a veritable history of the love of God, explaining its origin and development among men, at the same time showing how divine love begins to cool and then to languish. He also outlines the methods of developing and of growing in the love of God. When necessary he even goes deeply into explanations of the most difficult problems as, for example, that of efficacious grace, predestination, and the gift of faith. This he does not do dryly but, by reason of the agile and well-stored mind which he possessed, in such a way that his discussions abound in most beautiful language and are filled with an equally desirable function. He was also accustomed to illustrate his thoughts by an almost infinite variety of metaphors, examples, and quotations taken from the most part from the Holy Scriptures, all of which gave the impression that what he wrote flowed no less from this heart and the depths of his being than from his intellect.​

But what I meant is that you have nothing more to say unless it is a rude comeback of some kind.

The opening Prayer and Dedication in The Treatise on the Love of God:

Dedicatory Prayer
Treatise on the Love of God St. Francis de Sales
O Holy Mother of God, Queen and vessel of election, you are the most beloved of all creatures. The heavenly Father found pleasure in you from all eternity and destined your heart for perfect love, so you might have a unique motherly love for His Son. O Jesus, to whom could I better dedicate these words on your love?
O Mother, at your right hand is Joseph, whom your Son called “Father”. He was united to you in virginal marriage that he might help you. O, St. Joseph, how often you carried Jesus in your arms. Your soul melted away when he whispered that you were his friend and his well-beloved father.

Dedicated to Them
O Mary and Joseph, a couple without equal! In you, I place my hopes that this book will inflame the children of light with ineffable love. O well-beloved mother, Mary, and well-beloved spouse, Joseph, to you I dedicate this little work of love. I ask you to animate my heart and the hearts of all the readers so we can live once more amid the fires of love that Our Lord enkindled by his death on the cross.


I do not know who wrote your ‘copy and paste’ quote, but I must disagree with the notion of any Godly inspiration in a work that begins by praying to human beings and placing your trust in those human beings to answer your prayers.

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' [Mark 12:30 NASB]
 

MoreCoffee

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The opening Prayer and Dedication in The Treatise on the Love of God:

Dedicatory Prayer
Treatise on the Love of God St. Francis de Sales
O Holy Mother of God, Queen and vessel of election, you are the most beloved of all creatures. The heavenly Father found pleasure in you from all eternity and destined your heart for perfect love, so you might have a unique motherly love for His Son. O Jesus, to whom could I better dedicate these words on your love?
O Mother, at your right hand is Joseph, whom your Son called “Father”. He was united to you in virginal marriage that he might help you. O, St. Joseph, how often you carried Jesus in your arms. Your soul melted away when he whispered that you were his friend and his well-beloved father.

Dedicated to Them
O Mary and Joseph, a couple without equal! In you, I place my hopes that this book will inflame the children of light with ineffable love. O well-beloved mother, Mary, and well-beloved spouse, Joseph, to you I dedicate this little work of love. I ask you to animate my heart and the hearts of all the readers so we can live once more amid the fires of love that Our Lord enkindled by his death on the cross.
Amen and amen I say to Saint Francis De Sales dedicatory words. May God bless and continue to bless the book that he wrote and may Blessed Mary ever Virgin, saint Joseph her spouse, and the Lord Most High, Jesus Christ their child always be present with those who love God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. May the most holy family bless all who read the book and may the Blessed Trinity make effective its content.

I do not know who wrote your ‘copy and paste’ quote, but I must disagree with the notion of any Godly inspiration in a work that begins by praying to human beings and placing your trust in those human beings to answer your prayers.

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' [Mark 12:30 NASB]
 

MoreCoffee

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Amen and amen I say to Saint Francis De Sales dedicatory words. May God bless and continue to bless the book that he wrote and may Blessed Mary ever Virgin, saint Joseph her spouse, and the Lord Most High, Jesus Christ their child always be present with those who love God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. May the most holy family bless all who read the book and may the Blessed Trinity make effective its content.

Three human beings are explicitly mentioned in the dedication; one is the Lord Jesus Christ to whom Christians pray and who Christians worship without ceasing. The other two, Blessed Mary ever Virgin, and saint Joseph her spouse are in every meaningful sense the mother and father of the Lord Jesus Christ. And because Christians are in Christ, being his body, Blessed Mary and saint Joseph are the parents of all Christians too. Yet for us, who are Christians, there is but one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. So let no one confuse veneration of saintly parents for adoration of the one true God, the Blessed Trinity.
 

atpollard

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Three human beings are explicitly mentioned in the dedication; one is the Lord Jesus Christ to whom Christians pray and who Christians worship without ceasing. The other two, Blessed Mary ever Virgin, and saint Joseph her spouse are in every meaningful sense the mother and father of the Lord Jesus Christ. And because Christians are in Christ, being his body, Blessed Mary and saint Joseph are the parents of all Christians too. Yet for us, who are Christians, there is but one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. So let no one confuse veneration of saintly parents for adoration of the one true God, the Blessed Trinity.

“O Mary and Joseph, a couple without equal! In you, I place my hopes” ... I am just taking him at his word.
 

RichWh1

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Wow! How easy it is to get off of topic!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

atpollard

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Wow! How easy it is to get off of topic!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As far as I am concerned, I am still waiting for the OP to respond with a clarification of his question so we can BEGIN to discuss “The Topic”. We have just drifted from the argument about Josiah’s misdefinition of the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination, which is probably not the same thing as “The Topic” presented in the OP.
 

Josiah

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atpollard


fore·or·dain
/ˌfôrôrˈdān/
verb
verb: foreordain; 3rd person present: foreordains; past tense: foreordained; past participle: foreordained; gerund or present participle: foreordaining

(of God or fate) appoint or decree (something) beforehand.
"progress is not foreordained"
synonyms: predetermined, preordained, ordained, predestined, destined, fated

.


I gave the verbatim, literal, word-for-word, exact quote from the Westminster Confession for the Reformed dogma of predestination.

I noted that while it uses predestine in one case and foreordained in the other, the two words are identical in meaning. I also noted how in the video, both Calvinists used the words interchangably and spoke of the "predestination" of those going to hell.

Again, it is certainly acceptable to say, "The Catechism is poorly worded and misleading at that point, what actually is taught is....." but you didn't, MennoSota didn't, neither of the two men in the video did. Again, it is certainly acceptable to say, "That may have been the typical belief 300+ years ago but today the common understanding is....." but you didn't, MennoSota didn't, neither of the two men in the video did. What the two guys in the video IMPLIED is that what the Westminster Confession flat-out, verbatim, literally says is the exact opposite of the Calvinist position and that actually Calvinism is very much in line with the rest of Christianity. Okay. But then the Westminster Confession is wrong when it uses ACTIVE, CAUSITIVE words when referring to those not headed toward heaven.

I might add, MoreCoffee quoted the entire section on this doctrine, complete with Scriptures given, and nowhere does it say God Predestined those going to heaven and did, thought, desired NOTHING in regard to those not going to heaven, what you are saying "passed over." The entire section confirms the statement given in the verbatim, word-for-word, exact quote from the Confession that I gave; nowhere in the Catechism is your "passed over" mentioned or remotely implied.




.
 
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atpollard

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atpollard





I gave the verbatim, literal, word-for-word, exact quote from the Westminster Confession for the Reformed dogma of predestination.

I noted that while it uses predestine in one case and foreordained in the other, the two words are identical in meaning. I also noted how in the video, both Calvinists used the words interchangably and spoke of the "predestination" of those going to hell.

Again, it is certainly acceptable to say, "The Catechism is poorly worded and misleading at that point, what actually is taught is....." but you didn't, MennoSota didn't, neither of the two men in the video did. Again, it is certainly acceptable to say, "That may have been the typical belief 300+ years ago but today the common understanding is....." but you didn't, MennoSota didn't, neither of the two men in the video did. What the two guys in the video IMPLIED is that what the Westminster Confession flat-out, verbatim, literally says is the exact opposite of the Calvinist position and that actually Calvinism is very much in line with the rest of Christianity. Okay. But then the Westminster Confession is wrong when it uses ACTIVE, CAUSITIVE words when referring to those not headed toward heaven.

I might add, MoreCoffee quoted the entire section on this doctrine, complete with Scriptures given, and nowhere does it say God Predestined those going to heaven and did, thought, desired NOTHING in regard to those not going to heaven, what you are saying "passed over." The entire section confirms the statement given in the verbatim, word-for-word, exact quote from the Confession that I gave; nowhere in the Catechism is your "passed over" mentioned or remotely implied.




.

Read more than 1 sentence in the WCF.
 
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