Water Baptism

[YourTruthGod]

How does God deliver forgiveness of sins to the sinner?

When you know what your sins are, and you feel bad for them, and confess them to God, and repent of them, and call on Jesus to help you.

All the while knowing that you want to be a child of God's more than you want anything and more than you love anyone; and, that you will wait forever for God, all the while living that life as He wants you to live.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

If God must do it through a ceremony then it requires human works to merit salvation. It castrates grace.
The greek word, baptizo, means to immerse or dip fully into. It does not require water. It could be anything. So when scripture uses baptizo, we must look at context and not force water into the term. The context may not mean an immersion into water. When the Spirit of God baptizes us. He immerses us into the body of Christ. It's not into water at all...unless of course Jesus is a big glob of water.
So, water is not the thing that the Spirit immerses us into. The Spirit immerses us into Christ.
Water, however, is a physical element that symbolizes the work of immersion the Spirit has done. Water is not the actual immersion the Spirit has already accomplished (with no assistance needed by humans).
So let's not confuse the two. Let's not attempt to juxtipose the two and thus turn water baptism into a magical ceremony that works to save. Let us recognize the work the Spirit has accomplished beforehand, but we symbolically represent with water. If we don't, then we remove grace and replace it with our own works. May God forbid.

Water and the word of God are combined in the rite of Baptism. We use water because Jesus said one can not be born again, unless he is born of water and the Spirit. He didn't say water OR the spirit. You say the latter and create two baptisms, instead of the one baptism that Jesus Himself declared.

John 3:5 (NASB95): Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I'll proclaim what Jesus proclaims.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

When you know what your sins are, and you feel bad for them, and confess them to God, and repent of them, and call on Jesus to help you.

All the while knowing that you want to be a child of God's more than you want anything, and more than you love anyone.

And, that you will wait forever for God, all the while living that life as He wants you to live.

Who reveals your sins to you? Who shows you that you have sinned against God and are in need of a Savior? Who reveals Jesus Christ as the Savior you need? When you repent, you are responding to all these things being revealed to you. You do not have an active role in your salvation. The Holy Spirit acts and then you react to His actions.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Who reveals your sins to you? Who shows you that you have sinned against God and are in need of a Savior? Who reveals Jesus Christ as the Savior you need? When you repent, you are responding to all these things being revealed to you. You do not have an active role in your salvation. The Holy Spirit acts and then you react to His actions.

You aren't speaking truth. You pick up a Bible and can see what sin is and then you follow directions.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

You aren't speaking truth. You pick up a Bible and can see what sin is and then you follow directions.

That isn't an answer to the question I asked you. Since you can't or won't answer the sole question posed to you, I'll address the works-righteous trash you have posted, again.

You can't know what sin is until you know what the law is. Paul gives an example of this here:

Romans 7:7 (NASB95)

7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Who causes you to pick up the Bible instead of another religious text?

John 6:44 (NASB95)

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

I say what Scripture says. Scripture is true. Stop fighting against Scripture in your quest to be right. What you teach is against Scripture. You have confused Law and Gospel and also, Justification and Sanctification.

 

[MennoSota]

Another absolutely absurd argument.

Using your "logic" if your minister preaches the word, then it castrates grace since the preacher likely DOES something when he preaches. Jesus would have "castrated grace" by preaching the Sermon on the Mount and washing the disciples feet and healing the man born blind because Jesus DID something.


Your error is not only a absolutely silly point that God is rendered impotent if anyone does anything, but it renounces the "Means of Grace" as Protestants call it , that God can USE words and actions, "tools in the hands of the Carpenter" as it is often put. MUST He? No, God gave faith to John the Baptist when he was still in his mother's womb (Most don't like to tell God what He cannot do; that's a Calvinist and Arminian thing). But does He USUALLY use human words and actions? Yes. Calvinists teach this, too. Often your ABSURD arguments go against Calvinism, too. Where do you get this stuff?




Now, where is the verse that states, "Thou canst NOT administer baptism to any who hath not yet celebrated their Xth birthday (and you won't be told what age that is)." To substantiate the Anti-Paedobaptism dogma of the Anabaptists you echo?

Where is the verse that states, "Thou canst NOT administer baptism to any who hath not proven that they are among the unnamed few for whom Jesus died." To substantiate another dogma of yours.

Where is the verse that states, "Thou canst NOT administer baptism to any unless they hath first given public proof and testimony of their faith in Christ." To substantiate the Credobaptism dogma of the Anabaptists that you echo?

Where is the verse that states, "Thou canst NOT administer baptist to any unless every cell of their body is fully immersed under water." To substantiate another Anabaptist teaching you echo?




.

Nope.
But, no one in the New Testament was ever water baptized with the hope that maybe, just maybe, the person being water baptized would actually be immersed with Christ by God's grace at the same time. In every example the person has already been redeemed and immersed into Christ.
Since scripture doesn't reveal what your dogma declares, I think it's best to stick with scripture and throw your tradition out with the dirty water.

 

[YourTruthGod]

That isn't an answer to the question I asked you. Since you can't or won't answer the sole question posed to you, I'll address the works-righteous trash you have posted, again.

It isn't trash to eat Jesus.

You can't know what sin is until you know what the law is. Paul gives an example of this here:

Romans 7:7 (NASB95)

7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Look for Jesus' teachings in the new law.

Who causes you to pick up the Bible instead of another religious text?

Your parents might have tried to teach you about God and Jesus.
A family member or friend might have spoken to you about Jesus.
You might have heard about Jesus at Christmas time, or about how he rose from the dead after being crucified.
You might have been curious and bought a Bible and started reading it.

John 6:44 (NASB95)

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

That is when Jesus ONLY CAME FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. The rest of the Jews were cut off and hardened while Jesus walked the earth. The dogs and pigs were whom the cut off Jews were bound over with.

That scripture John 6:44 that you keep using in a false way proves you wrong.

If no one can become sheep and so be saved, then what about all the Gentiles and everyone else to do? You know, all those dogs and pigs.

I say what Scripture says. Scripture is true. Stop fighting against Scripture in your quest to be right. What you teach is against Scripture. You have confused Law and Gospel and also, Justification and Sanctification.

I am trying to help you know the truth.

 

[MennoSota]

Water and the word of God are combined in the rite of Baptism. We use water because Jesus said one can not be born again, unless he is born of water and the Spirit. He didn't say water OR the spirit. You say the latter and create two baptisms, instead of the one baptism that Jesus Himself declared.

John 3:5 (NASB95): Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I'll proclaim what Jesus proclaims.

Your interpretation of that verse is poor, which leads to confusion. Nowhere in John 3:5 is baptism being discussed.
Jesus is simply saying that you are born physically (water) and born spiritually (Spirit makes you alive [Ephesians 2]). This makes sense because Nicodemus is thinking physical while Jesus is talking spiritual in regard to being born again.
For you to make that about baptism is just poor exegesis that is completely out of context with the passage.
So... don't hang your theology on that verse.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Your interpretation of that verse is poor, which leads to confusion. Nowhere in John 3:5 is baptism being discussed.
Jesus is simply saying that you are born physically (water) and born spiritually (Spirit makes you alive [Ephesians 2]). This makes sense because Nicodemus is thinking physical while Jesus is talking spiritual in regard to being born again.
For you to make that about baptism is just poor exegesis that is completely out of context with the passage.
So... don't hang your theology on that verse.

My interpretation is poor? Please, just stop now. There's nothing to interpret in John 3:5 since Jesus is speaking plainly and not telling a parable or speaking metaphorically. Baptism is exactly what is being discussed. Being born of water and Spirit is what Baptism is! You are really twisting Scripture to make it say things it does not say. Are you one of those people that believes our first birth is when we are born of water because we are covered in amniotic fluid? There is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, not two.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

It isn't trash to eat Jesus.



Look for Jesus' teachings in the new law.



Your parents might have tried to teach you about God and Jesus.
A family member or friend might have spoken to you about Jesus.
You might have heard about Jesus at Christmas time, or about how he rose from the dead after being crucified.
You might have been curious and bought a Bible and started reading it.


That is when Jesus ONLY CAME FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL. The rest of the Jews were cut off and hardened while Jesus walked the earth. The dogs and pigs were whom the cut off Jews were bound over with.

That scripture John 6:44 that you keep using in a false way proves you wrong.

If no one can become sheep and so be saved, then what about all the Gentiles and everyone else to do? You know, all those dogs and pigs.



I am trying to help you know the truth.

I know the truth, already. The questions I ask you, I already know the answers to. Until you understand the whole Bible, you can't help anyone else understand it. Again, your post is focused on human deeds, not on God's work in the life of a sinner.

 

[MennoSota]

My interpretation is poor? Please, just stop now. There's nothing to interpret in John 3:5 since Jesus is speaking plainly and not telling a parable or speaking metaphorically. Baptism is exactly what is being discussed. Being born of water and Spirit is what Baptism is! You are really twisting Scripture to make it say things it does not say. Are you one of those people that believes our first birth is when we are born of water because we are covered in amniotic fluid? There is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, not two.

No. Baptism is never mentioned. You force it into the text. Why? There is literally nothing there for someone to yell "water baptism!" Nicodemus response tells you that even he isn't thinking water baptism.
Please, stop shoving dogma on to the text.
John 3:1-9 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?”

You are correct. There is only one effective baptism. No water required. Water baptism is symbolic, like a Jewish sadir meal, it represents what God has already done.
Example: The thief on the cross was never water baptized. He is in heaven. The Spirit of God immersed the thief into Christ right on the cross. Jesus says "today you will be with me in Paradise."
Water not necessary.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

No. Baptism is never mentioned. You force it into the text. Why? There is literally nothing there for someone to yell "water baptism!" Nicodemus response tells you that even he isn't thinking water baptism.
Please, stop shoving dogma on to the text.
John 3:1-9 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?”

What is Baptism then if not Water and Spirit working together? How are we born again, so that we may enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[MennoSota]

What is Baptism then if not Water and Spirit working together? How are we born again, so that we may enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Start here:
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:1-10,13-16,18-22 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

God by the Spirit.
Water baptism not required.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Start here:
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:1-10,13-16,18-22 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

God by the Spirit.
Water baptism not required.

Water Baptism not required? Then why did Jesus command His disciples to do so in Matthew 28:19-20?

Matthew 28:19–20 (NASB95)

19) Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20)teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

 

[MennoSota]

Water Baptism not required? Then why did Jesus command His disciples to do so in Matthew 28:19-20?

Matthew 28:19–20 (NASB95)

19) Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20)teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We baptize so that the saints might witness the community of believers that God has brought in to the body. We baptize so the world might know that we now walk as children of the King, not as children of rebellion.
We are called to go and make disciples. Baptism comes afterward.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I know the truth, already. The questions I ask you, I already know the answers to. Until you understand the whole Bible, you can't help anyone else understand it. Again, your post is focused on human deeds, not on God's work in the life of a sinner.

You don't even address what I say because you are stumped and just give your worthless opinion about me.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

We baptize so that the saints might witness the community of believers that God has brought in to the body. We baptize so the world might know that we now walk as children of the King, not as children of rebellion.
We are called to go and make disciples. Baptism comes afterward.

Well which is it? Either it's not required, as you said in a previous post or it is required as you're saying now. You can't have it both ways.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

You don't even address what I say because you are stumped and just give your worthless opinion about me.

Is that what you tell yourself about everyone in this forum? I asked you one question and you dodged it. I'm really not the "stumped one" here. If my opinion about you is SO worthless, why validate it with a response?

 

[MennoSota]

Well which is it? Either it's not required, as you said in a previous post or it is required as you're saying now. You can't have it both ways.

I'm sorry if you cannot discern what I am saying. Let me know if you figure it out.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We baptize so that the saints might witness the community of believers that God has brought in to the body.

Where does holy scripture teach what you wrote here; namely that baptism is given so that the saints might witness the community of believers that God has brought in to the body.

We baptize so the world might know that we now walk as children of the King, not as children of rebellion.

Where does holy scripture teach what you wrote here; namely that baptism is given so the world might know that we now walk as children of the King, not as children of rebellion.

We are called to go and make disciples. Baptism comes afterward.

Where do the holy scriptures teach what you wrote here; namely that baptism is given to the faithful so that they fulfil their call to go and make disciples and that baptism comes afterwards.