Double Predestination

[Josiah]

The Calvinist definition. From the Westminster Confession:


"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."



Notes:


1. "Predestine" or "forordained" means "to cause, to be responsible for." Note the word "foreknow"is avoided equally in both cases, that word means to know ahead of time but not cause or be responsible for.


2. This is equally placed on two things: Those who will have everlasting life and those who have everlasting death. BOTH. Thus "double"


3. God is gloried by those who enter heaven and also by those who fry eternally in hell. Some are given heaven and most hell because these both "manifest his glory."


That's the Calvinist definition.



For "Election" or "SINGLE Predestination" see post # 7.




.

The Westminster Confession of Faith offers none of what you call “Calvinism” Double Predestination ...

I quoted it verbatim.

It states there are two predestinations ("to cause" "to make happen" "to be responsible for"). It states what it does. You may disagree with it (every Calvinist personally known to me does) but it is what it is.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My printed copy of the 1647 edition of the Westminster Confession of Faith says:

Chapter III.
Of God’s Eternal Decree.


I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (a) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c)

(a) Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18.
(b) Jam. 1:13, 17; I John 1:5.
(c) Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,(d) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.(e)

(d) Acts 15:18; I Sam. 23:11, 12; Matt. 11:21, 23.
(e) Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels(f) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.(g)

(f) I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
(g) Rom. 9:22, 23; Eph. 1:5, 6; Prov. 16:4.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(h)

(h) II Tim. 2:19; John 13:18.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,(i) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (k) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.(l)

(i) Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:30; II Tim. 1:9; I Thess. 5:9.
(k) Rom. 9:11, 13, 16; Eph. 1:4, 9.
(l) Eph. 1:6, 12.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.(m) Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(o) and kept by His power through faith, unto salvation.(p) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(q)

(m) I Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:4, 5; Eph. 2:10; II Thess. 2:13.
I Thess. 5:9, 10; Titus 2:14.
(o) Rom. 8:30; Eph. 1:5; II Thess. 2:13.
(p) I Pet. 1:5.
(q) John 17:9; Rom. 8:28 to the end; John 6:64, 65; John 10:26; John 8:47; I John 2:19.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)

(r) Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:17, 18, 21, 22; II Tim. 2:19, 20; Jude ver. 4; I Pet. 2:8.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,(s) that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.(t) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God,(u) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.(w)

(s) Rom. 9:20; Rom. 11:33; Deut. 29:29.
(t) II Pet. 1:10.
(u) Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33.
(w) Rom. 11:5, 6, 20; II Pet. 1:10; Rom. 8:33; Luke 10:20.

 

[MennoSota]

My printed copy of the 1647 edition of the Westminster Confession of Faith says:

Chapter III.
Of God’s Eternal Decree.


I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (a) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c)

(a) Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18.
(b) Jam. 1:13, 17; I John 1:5.
(c) Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,(d) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.(e)

(d) Acts 15:18; I Sam. 23:11, 12; Matt. 11:21, 23.
(e) Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels(f) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.(g)

(f) I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
(g) Rom. 9:22, 23; Eph. 1:5, 6; Prov. 16:4.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(h)

(h) II Tim. 2:19; John 13:18.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,(i) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (k) and all to the praise of His glorious grace.(l)

(i) Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:30; II Tim. 1:9; I Thess. 5:9.
(k) Rom. 9:11, 13, 16; Eph. 1:4, 9.
(l) Eph. 1:6, 12.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.(m) Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,(o) and kept by His power through faith, unto salvation.(p) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(q)

(m) I Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:4, 5; Eph. 2:10; II Thess. 2:13.
I Thess. 5:9, 10; Titus 2:14.
(o) Rom. 8:30; Eph. 1:5; II Thess. 2:13.
(p) I Pet. 1:5.
(q) John 17:9; Rom. 8:28 to the end; John 6:64, 65; John 10:26; John 8:47; I John 2:19.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)

(r) Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:17, 18, 21, 22; II Tim. 2:19, 20; Jude ver. 4; I Pet. 2:8.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,(s) that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.(t) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God,(u) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.(w)

(s) Rom. 9:20; Rom. 11:33; Deut. 29:29.
(t) II Pet. 1:10.
(u) Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33.
(w) Rom. 11:5, 6, 20; II Pet. 1:10; Rom. 8:33; Luke 10:20.

Great, now look up the verses and tell us what they say. I'm much more concerned with God speaking than with men making up stuff and sharing verses to prove their opinion.
The context of scripture guides us as the Spirit of God counsels. Let us read scripture. It is living and sharp. Far more beneficial than a confession, concord or catechism that is men giving opinion. Let us never lift such secondary writings above God's word.

 

[Josiah]

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels(f) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.(g)

(f) I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
(g) Rom. 9:22, 23; Eph. 1:5, 6; Prov. 16:4.

Correct.

This later redaction retains the predestination to BOTH everlasting life and everlasting dead. Thus, it's typically called Double Predestination. It's quote unique to Calvinism. It's the second part, the part where God desires most to fry eternally in hell, where God is gloried by most frying in hell, that is the debated part, the part in conflict with Scripture and the Ecumenical Council of Orange and 2000 years of Christian faith, the part that every Calvinist personally known to me rejects. But it IS the distinctive TULIP position, the DOUBLE predestination invention.

Of course, the verses given in this later revision in no way shows that God equally cause a few to go to heaven and most to fry in hell.

 

[MennoSota]

https://youtu.be/bQpXYlxzBfo

 

[Josiah]

In the first 90 seconds of the video above, he claims to support Double Predestination while he denies it. Predestination MEANS to cause, to bring about, to be the cause or reason. So so "fore-ordain." One cannot hold to DOUBLE predestination, as he says he does, and then insist double predestination is wrong. Not even this Calvinist can support what the Westminister Confession says, he denies it. And when the questioner asks for Scriptures to support it, they all laugh. I wonder why?


Unlike this man in the video claims, the Calvinist position is this: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death.""



Note:


1. "Predestine" or "forordained" means "to cause, to be responsible for." Note the word "foreknow" is avoided equally in both cases, that word means to know ahead of time but not cause or be responsible for, thus it's not used. Nor is the word "passed over" used so as to imply something passive, it's not used because that's not meant. The words do NOT mean "did, caused, brought about nothing." The two words used are ACTIVE terms. And note in the video, the word "predestine"is used for BOTH those going to heaven AND those going to hell. No distinction is made between "predestined" and "foreordained" - they mean the same thing here.


2. This is equally placed on two things: Those who will have everlasting life and those who have everlasting death. "AND" BOTH. Thus "double" This is DOUBLE Predestination.


3. God is gloried by those who enter heaven and also by those who fry eternally in hell. Some are given heaven and most hell because these both "manifest his glory."


4. Even in this attempt to say "I agree with Double Presdination" and that "I don't believe in that", none do what the young man asks: for the words of Scripture that states God actively desires and causes most to go to hell and is glorified by that. Why? They don't have a verse. They could quote some pagan Greek philosophers but not Scripture and we all know why.


That's the Calvinist definition. The men in this video don't like it, and I do understand and appreciate that, but the definition is as Calvinism officially states: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death.""




IMO, if one is going to reject and repudiate what their Confessions STATE, I'm fine with that (I don't believe any denomination is infallible/unaccountable). Have the honest to say so. But the laughter, the double-speak, the CLAIMING to support while arging it's wrong.... and then showing there's NOTHING in Scripture or the Councils or in the Christian faith that actually agrees, that's inappropriate. All the Calvinists personally known to me (including my wife's whole family - she has LOTS of ancestors who where Scottish Calvinists) and even her Reformed pastor in the church she belonged to before converting to Lutheranism, they all reject this teaching. They hold to SINGLE Predestination.




.

 

[MennoSota]

In the first 90 seconds of the video above, he claims to support Double Predestination while he denies it. Predestination MEANS to cause, to bring about, to be the cause or reason. So so "fore-ordain." One cannot hold to DOUBLE predestination, as he says he does, and then insist double predestination is wrong. Not even this Calvinist can support what the Westminister Confession says, he denies it. And when the questioner asks for Scriptures to support it, they all laugh. I wonder why?


Unlike this man in the video claims, the Calvinist position is this: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death.""



Note:


1. "Predestine" or "forordained" means "to cause, to be responsible for." Note the word "foreknow" is avoided equally in both cases, that word means to know ahead of time but not cause or be responsible for, thus it's not used. Nor is the word "passed over" used so as to imply something passive, it's not used because that's not meant. The words do NOT mean "did, caused, brought about nothing." The two words used are ACTIVE terms. And note in the video, the word "predestine"is used for BOTH those going to heaven AND those going to hell. No distinction is made between "predestined" and "foreordained" - they mean the same thing here.


2. This is equally placed on two things: Those who will have everlasting life and those who have everlasting death. "AND" BOTH. Thus "double" This is DOUBLE Predestination.


3. God is gloried by those who enter heaven and also by those who fry eternally in hell. Some are given heaven and most hell because these both "manifest his glory."


4. Even in this attempt to say "I agree with Double Presdination" and that "I don't believe in that", none do what the young man asks: for the words of Scripture that states God actively desires and causes most to go to hell and is glorified by that. Why? They don't have a verse. They could quote some pagan Greek philosophers but not Scripture and we all know why.


That's the Calvinist definition. The men in this video don't like it, and I do understand and appreciate that, but the definition is as Calvinism officially states: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death.""




IMO, if one is going to reject and repudiate what their Confessions STATE, I'm fine with that (I don't believe any denomination is infallible/unaccountable). Have the honest to say so. But the laughter, the double-speak, the CLAIMING to support while arging it's wrong.... and then showing there's NOTHING in Scripture or the Councils or in the Christian faith that actually agrees, that's inappropriate. All the Calvinists personally known to me (including my wife's whole family - she has LOTS of ancestors who where Scottish Calvinists) and even her Reformed pastor in the church she belonged to before converting to Lutheranism, they all reject this teaching. They hold to SINGLE Predestination.




.

Josiah, it seems you are just too stubborn to accept the reformed definition, so you push your own instead.
There is no denial of predestination. There is only you, attempting to create some stuff that neither Sproul, nor MacArthur present. You may now go live in your fantasy world, arguing against a phantom of your own imagination. I will stick with brothers who know more and know better than you.

 

[Josiah]

J
There is no denial of predestination.

There IS of the DOUBLE Predestination of Calvinism. The Scriptures deny it, the Ecumenical Council of Orange denies it, the Christian faith denies it, even every Calvinists personally known to me denies it. And in that video, their laughter,their not even attempting to share Scripture on this DOUBLE feature, their double-speak, all suggest denial as well. SINGLE predestination, yes - DOUBLE, no.





.

 

[MennoSota]

There IS of the DOUBLE Predestination of Calvinism. The Scriptures deny it, the Ecumenical Council of Orange denies it, the Christian faith denies it, even every Calvinists personally known to me denies it. And in that video, their laughter,their not even attempting to share Scripture on this DOUBLE feature, their double-speak, all suggest denial as well. SINGLE predestination, yes - DOUBLE, no.





.

You outright reject Sproul and MacArthur who are leading reformed theologians. Live in your fantasy, Josiah, but don't claim it's what Reformed Christians believe about predestination.
https://youtu.be/bQpXYlxzBfo

Good luck with your fantasy claims, Josiah.

 

[Josiah]

Unlike this man in the video claims, the official, verbatim, literal, word-for-word Calvinist position is this: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death.""



Note:


1. "Predestine" or "forordained" means "to cause, to be responsible for." Note the word "foreknow" is avoided equally in both cases, that word means to know ahead of time but not cause or be responsible for, thus it's not used. Nor is the word "passed over" used so as to imply something passive, it's not used because that's not meant. The words do NOT mean "did, caused, brought about nothing." The two words used are ACTIVE terms. And note in the video, the word "predestine"is used for BOTH those going to heaven AND those going to hell. No distinction is made between "predestined" and "foreordained" - they mean the same thing here.


2. This is equally placed on two things: Those who will have everlasting life and those who have everlasting death. "AND" BOTH. Thus "double" This is DOUBLE Predestination.


3. God is gloried by those who enter heaven and also by those who fry eternally in hell. Some are given heaven and most hell because these both "manifest his glory."


4. Even in this attempt to say "I agree with Double Presdination" and that "I don't believe in that", none do what the young man asks: for the words of Scripture that states God actively desires and causes most to go to hell and is glorified by that. Why? They don't have a verse. They could quote some pagan Greek philosophers but not Scripture and we all know why.


That's the Calvinist definition. The men in this video don't like it, and I do understand and appreciate that, but the definition is as Calvinism officially states: "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life and others foreordained to everlasting death." What is, is. They can say "But we don't accept that" and that's fine, I can respect that.... and that's what every Calvinist known personally to me does, but that's not what these two in the video say. We just get double-speak, denials, laughter and nothing from Scripture for the disputed DOUBLE aspect.




.

 

[MennoSota]

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/double-predestination/

I doubt people like Josiah will read or listen.

 

[atpollard]

There IS of the DOUBLE Predestination of Calvinism. The Scriptures deny it, the Ecumenical Council of Orange denies it, the Christian faith denies it, even every Calvinists personally known to me denies it. And in that video, their laughter,their not even attempting to share Scripture on this DOUBLE feature, their double-speak, all suggest denial as well. SINGLE predestination, yes - DOUBLE, no.
.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)

(r) Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:17, 18, 21, 22; II Tim. 2:19, 20; Jude 1:4; I Pet. 2:8.

 

[Josiah]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.(r)

(r) Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:17, 18, 21, 22; II Tim. 2:19, 20; Jude 1:4; I Pet. 2:8.

But then the Westminster Confession is wrong. Which is it? Does God predestine/foreordain some to hell as the Westminster Confession verbatim states (Double Predestination) or does Calvinism actually AGREE with RCC, the EOC, Lutheranism, Anglicanism and virturally every other faith community on the planet that Double Predestination is WRONG? Are the two men in the video MennoSota shared WRONG when they flat-out said Calvinism teaches "DOUBLE Predestination"or are they right? Remember: Predestine MEANS to cause, to make happen. It is an ACTIVE word.

BTW, I completely agree with all the verses you reference, and note that not one of them remotely teaches DOUBLE predestination, none of the remotely teach what the Westminster Confession verbatim states. None of them say what the two men in the video do.


If the Westminster Confession is wrong and now disbelieved, friend, I'm okay with that. Just admit it. At least say, "That' very poorly worded and does not convey what is true and believed" (as several Catholics have done with verbatim statements from the Catechism). Have the HONESTY, the integrity to admit, "Those words are not correct." 400 plus YEARS of "misunderstanding" PERHAPS MIGHT have been prevented if Calvinists have said, "We don't believe in double predestonation, we don't believe what the Westminster Confession, etc., etc., etc. verbatim state - what we believe is actually what you do." For example, I do NOT deny that the Lutheran Confessions STATE some things about the Pope that I denounce. I think I know what they MEANT but it isn't what they WROTE. I could "spin" it so that it "means" something very different than that it STATES but that would be dishonest. I simply say, "at the very least, it is BADLY worded and misleading." But I just say, "It's wrong." So does my pastor. So does virtually every Lutheran pastor and laymen known to me. But - doing as MennoSota does, as the two men in the video do- that's dishonest at best if what the Westminster Confession, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. STATES is actually wrong and denied. If you AGREE with the Council of Orange, with the RCC, with the EOC, with Anglicans, with Lutherans on Election, why not say that?



.

 

[atpollard]

But then the Westminster Confession is wrong. Which is it? Does God predestine/foreordain some to hell as the Westminster Confession verbatim states (Double Predestination) or does Calvinism actually AGREE with RCC, the EOC, Lutheranism, Anglicanism and virturally every other faith community on the planet that Double Predestination is WRONG? Are the two men in the video MennoSota shared WRONG when they flat-out said Calvinism teaches "DOUBLE Predestination"or are they right? Remember: Predestine MEANS to cause, to make happen. It is an ACTIVE word.

BTW, I completely agree with all the verses you reference, and note that not one of them remotely teaches DOUBLE predestination, none of the remotely teach what the Westminster Confession verbatim states. None of them say what the two men in the video do.


If the Westminster Confession is wrong and now disbelieved, friend, I'm okay with that. Just admit it. At least say, "That' very poorly worded and does not convey what is true and believed" (as several Catholics have done with verbatim statements from the Catechism). Have the HONESTY, the integrity to admit, "Those words are not correct." 400 plus YEARS of "misunderstanding" PERHAPS MIGHT have been prevented if Calvinists have said, "We don't believe in double predestonation, we don't believe what the Westminster Confession, etc., etc., etc. verbatim state - what we believe is actually what you do." For example, I do NOT deny that the Lutheran Confessions STATE some things about the Pope that I denounce. I think I know what they MEANT but it isn't what they WROTE. I could "spin" it so that it "means" something very different than that it STATES but that would be dishonest. I simply say, "at the very least, it is BADLY worded and misleading." But I just say, "It's wrong." So does my pastor. So does virtually every Lutheran pastor and laymen known to me. But - doing as MennoSota does, as the two men in the video do- that's dishonest at best if what the Westminster Confession, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. STATES is actually wrong and denied. If you AGREE with the Council of Orange, with the RCC, with the EOC, with Anglicans, with Lutherans on Election, why not say that?
.

Predestine is not the same thing as foreordain, that is why the WCF says God PREDESTINES to salvation, and FOREORDAINS to Hell.

God DRAWS to Jesus, God GIVES faith.
Those FOREORDAINED are simply “passed over” and left to reap the harvest of their sinful wills as the reprobate children of the father of lies.

Reread what I posted from the WCF Short Catechism and what MoreCoffee posted from the larger WCF.
Read beyond the one line.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Great, now look up the verses and tell us what they say. I'm much more concerned with God speaking than with men making up stuff and sharing verses to prove their opinion.
The context of scripture guides us as the Spirit of God counsels. Let us read scripture. It is living and sharp. Far more beneficial than a confession, concord or catechism that is men giving opinion. Let us never lift such secondary writings above God's word.

The verses appear if you hover your mouse pointer over them when the text is bold and blue. If you need to read the texts then that is one method for doing so. Otherwise you could look them up in either a printed bible or some bible software. For myself, I have read the passages as I always do before posting anything in this forum.

 

[MennoSota]

The verses appear if you hover your mouse pointer over them when the text is bold and blue. If you need to read the texts then that is one method for doing so. Otherwise you could look them up in either a printed bible or some bible software. For myself, I have read the passages as I always do before posting anything in this forum.

So... you're lazy. Got it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Correct.

This later redaction retains the predestination to BOTH everlasting life and everlasting dead.

I do not think that Presbyterians have redacted versions of their confession of faith but they did have a history of making changes - especially in the punctuation - and additions to suit new national political realities.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So... you're lazy. Got it.

Well no. You do not have it. But if it pleases you to think so then okay. There's nothing more to say.

 

[MennoSota]

Well no. You do not have it. But if it pleases you to think so then okay. There's nothing more to say.

Of course there is nothing more. You don't have a copy and paste at the ready.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course there is nothing more. You don't have a copy and paste at the ready.

I always have a copy & paste at hand.

Finally, he teaches us how not only to conquer dangers, temptations, and the allurements of pleasure, but how every year it is necessary for each of us to renew and to rekindle his love of God by the making of holy resolutions. May it please God that this book, the most perfect of its kind in the opinion of contemporaries of the Saint, be read now as it formerly was by practically every one. If this were done, Christian piety certainly would flourish the world over and the Church of God could rejoice in the assurance of a widespread attainment of holiness by her children.

The Treatise on the Love of God, however, is a much more important and significant book than any of the others he published. In this work the saintly Doctor gives a veritable history of the love of God, explaining its origin and development among men, at the same time showing how divine love begins to cool and then to languish. He also outlines the methods of developing and of growing in the love of God. When necessary he even goes deeply into explanations of the most difficult problems as, for example, that of efficacious grace, predestination, and the gift of faith. This he does not do dryly but, by reason of the agile and well-stored mind which he possessed, in such a way that his discussions abound in most beautiful language and are filled with an equally desirable function. He was also accustomed to illustrate his thoughts by an almost infinite variety of metaphors, examples, and quotations taken from the most part from the Holy Scriptures, all of which gave the impression that what he wrote flowed no less from this heart and the depths of his being than from his intellect.​

But what I meant is that you have nothing more to say unless it is a rude comeback of some kind.