Jesus Christ, died for all

[MennoSota]

God is omnipresence, his deep love for his rejectors creates friction - hell, "God is a consuming fire" and "is love" thus it's hell for those who try to escape it because they can't

First, to MC's complaint, God is patient with people. Justice demands action against injustice, yet God lovingly and patiently withholds his hammer of justice. It is not withheld forever, which some think is unfair and unloving. I say that injustice never dealt with is unloving, but some say that injustice never dealt with is loving. (universalists)
Those who hold to unlimited atonement will say that God's justice fell on Jesus for all humanity. They declare that the determination between heaven and hell is whether a person believed or didn't believe. Some will say that the unforgivable sin is unbelief. However, that view subtly declares that Jesus atonement is not complete because human will to reject is greater than Jesus ability to atone for every sin.
Others claim that Jesus atoned for all humanity but though the atonement paid for all sin, it did not justify humans. It was merely a payment. The justification only is added if God gives a person faith. It promotes a half-payment that isn't in full unless God gives faith. This is a strange position because it leaves Jesus atoning sacrifice up for grabs. Jesus blood potentially purchases all sinners, but not really because only those given faith actually effectively have their sins purchased.
Those who hold to limited atonement will say that Jesus atonement paid for all who God has chosen to give faith. Those who God does not give faith do not have their sins purchased by the sacrificial atonement of Christ. Every drop of Jesus blood is effective to justify and to give faith to those for whom Jesus died. Not one work of God is ineffective. God showed His love for the elect (for us) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God told me that love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. And since Love does not insist on its own way how can Love insist that failure to believe the right story and the right things will end in fire and torment forever? Isn't the insisting on its own way? Believe or burn?

 

[Josiah]

Those who hold to limited atonement will say that Jesus atonement paid for all who God has chosen to give faith. Those who God does not give faith do not have their sins purchased by the sacrificial atonement of Christ. Every drop of Jesus blood is effective to justify and to give faith to those for whom Jesus died. Not one work of God is ineffective. God showed His love for the elect (for us) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Wrong.


1. 100% of Christians for the First through 15th Century, and perhaps 99.9% of them since, accept that Christ died for all because that's what the Bible over and over and over again directly, specifically, flat-out, literally STATES (you've admitted "two or three do"), because no one has been able to find the verse that still aludes you, the one that states, "That's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME." And because if Christ only died for a few unnamed persons, then no one can have a clue if Jesus is their Savior and if their faith is actually grasping anything that actually exists for THEM and God lies to most people, offering them something He doens't have for them.


2. 100% of Christians for the First through 15th Century, and perhaps 99.9% of them since accept that faith is essential to our personal justification. They reject the repudiation of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists who essentially eliminate faith insisting that if Jesus died for them, ergo they are justified (the same false premise lead many of them to invent Universalism). Classic Christianity embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (not simply Solus Chrstus, repudiating the first and last aspects). While Christ died for all (as the Bible verbatim, literally states over and over), not all have faith (as the Bible so often clearly states) and thus PERSONALLY, they do not receive the benefits of Christ's atoning work, it is not "credited to them by faith." The Ecumenical Council of Orange, which made Election dogma, states that Election applies to who recieves faith, not for whom Christ died but since these later day radical Calvinists essentially eliminate faith in justification and reject the words in the Bible, they apply Election to the Cross.


3. Note that here we are at page 81 and yet still one more thread on this topic..... And MennoSota while he has admitted that "two or three Scriptures state Christ died for all" he is still looking for the verse, "That's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but rather for ONLY SOME." Now, he can (and freely does) CHANGE Scripture, CHANGE the words, so that they say the OPPOSITE of what they do, but of course ANY heretical, crazy idea can be substantiated if we do as he does, simply (and radically) CHANGE what the verse says. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but has life everlasting" (John 3:16) becomes "For God so loved a tiny unnamed few so that He gave to only them His only begotten that whether they believe or not, they have everlasting life." "For Christ died for ONLY the sins of the elect (whoever they are) and not for any other" (First John 2:2) and so on.





.

 

[MennoSota]

Wrong.


1. 100% of Christians for the First through 15th Century, and perhaps 99.9% of them since, accept that Christ died for all because that's what the Bible over and over and over again directly, specifically, flat-out, literally STATES (you've admitted "two or three do"), because no one has been able to find the verse that still aludes you, the one that states, "That's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME." And because if Christ only died for a few unnamed persons, then no one can have a clue if Jesus is their Savior and if their faith is actually grasping anything that actually exists for THEM and God lies to most people, offering them something He doens't have for them.


2. 100% of Christians for the First through 15th Century, and perhaps 99.9% of them since accept that faith is essential to our personal justification. They reject the repudiation of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists who essentially eliminate faith insisting that if Jesus died for them, ergo they are justified (the same false premise lead many of them to invent Universalism). Classic Christianity embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (not simply Solus Chrstus, repudiating the first and last aspects). While Christ died for all (as the Bible verbatim, literally states over and over), not all have faith (as the Bible so often clearly states) and thus PERSONALLY, they do not receive the benefits of Christ's atoning work, it is not "credited to them by faith." The Ecumenical Council of Orange, which made Election dogma, states that Election applies to who recieves faith, not for whom Christ died but since these later day radical Calvinists essentially eliminate faith in justification and reject the words in the Bible, they apply Election to the Cross.


3. Note that here we are at page 81 and yet still one more thread on this topic..... And MennoSota while he has admitted that "two or three Scriptures state Christ died for all" he is still looking for the verse, "That's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but rather for ONLY SOME." Now, he can (and freely does) CHANGE Scripture, CHANGE the words, so that they say the OPPOSITE of what they do, but of course ANY heretical, crazy idea can be substantiated if we do as he does, simply (and radically) CHANGE what the verse says. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but has life everlasting" (John 3:16) becomes "For God so loved a tiny unnamed few so that He gave to only them His only begotten that whether they believe or not, they have everlasting life." "For Christ died for ONLY the sins of the elect (whoever they are) and not for any other" (First John 2:2) and so on.





.

Josiah, I have shared verses that speak of Jesus dying for his sheep, not for the world. Verses have been shared that point to Jesus dying for those the Father chose to give him. You won't accept these as legitimately supporting limited atonement.
Second, you talk about tradition, but you never address the conflict in your position. I have brought it up multiple times. You ignore it. Instead you go straight for you pat answer of "tradition," which by the way, you have never proven. You have never proven that all Christians believed and taught unlimited atonement for the first 1500 years. You assert it, but don't prove it.
I assert that Jesus and the Apostles taught limited atonement and I have shared passages that support it.
Josiah, you are free to live with your contradiction. It won't change the fact that even in your version, God's salvation is limited to those whom God gifts faith. You correctly believe this. You just cannot reconcile how God purchased all humanity, but only chooses to give faith to some, not all. That is reconciled for me.

 

[Josiah]

Wrong.


1. 100% of Christians for the First through 15th Century, and perhaps 99.9% of them since, accept that Christ died for all because that's what the Bible over and over and over again directly, specifically, flat-out, literally STATES (you've admitted "two or three do"), because no one has been able to find the verse that still aludes you, the one that states, "That's not true, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME." And because if Christ only died for a few unnamed persons, then no one can have a clue if Jesus is their Savior and if their faith is actually grasping anything that actually exists for THEM and God lies to most people, offering them something He doens't have for them.


2. 100% of Christians for the First through 15th Century, and perhaps 99.9% of them since accept that faith is essential to our personal justification. They reject the repudiation of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists who essentially eliminate faith insisting that if Jesus died for them, ergo they are justified (the same false premise lead many of them to invent Universalism). Classic Christianity embraces Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (not simply Solus Chrstus, repudiating the first and last aspects). While Christ died for all (as the Bible verbatim, literally states over and over), not all have faith (as the Bible so often clearly states) and thus PERSONALLY, they do not receive the benefits of Christ's atoning work, it is not "credited to them by faith." The Ecumenical Council of Orange, which made Election dogma, states that Election applies to who recieves faith, not for whom Christ died but since these later day radical Calvinists essentially eliminate faith in justification and reject the words in the Bible, they apply Election to the Cross.


3. Note that here we are at page 81 and yet still one more thread on this topic..... And MennoSota while he has admitted that "two or three Scriptures state Christ died for all" he is still looking for the verse, "That's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but rather for ONLY SOME." Now, he can (and freely does) CHANGE Scripture, CHANGE the words, so that they say the OPPOSITE of what they do, but of course ANY heretical, crazy idea can be substantiated if we do as he does, simply (and radically) CHANGE what the verse says. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but has life everlasting" (John 3:16) becomes "For God so loved a tiny unnamed few so that He gave to only them His only begotten that whether they believe or not, they have everlasting life." "For Christ died for ONLY the sins of the elect (whoever they are) and not for any other" (First John 2:2) and so on.


.

Josiah, I have shared verses that speak of Jesus dying not for the world

Come on, we ALL KNOW that's not true.

You only have admitted that "there are two or three" Scriptures that state the opposite of what you do (there's actually a lot more than that, but that's irrelevant)

Josiah, you are free to live with your contradiction.

Our position doesn't contradict any Scriptures, yours does.




.

 

[MennoSota]

Come on, we ALL KNOW that's not true.

You only have admitted that "there are two or three" Scriptures that state the opposite of what you do (there's actually a lot more than that, but that's irrelevant)







Our position doesn't contradict any Scriptures, yours does.




.

Josiah, you can go back through this thread and read the scriptures shared with you.
I indeed admit that a myopic interpretation of two or three sentences gives the illusion that Jesus died for and paid for all humanity. If I lived in a box where only those two or three sentences existed, I might be convinced. But the Bible is much greater than two or three sentences. The whole of scripture interprets those two or three sentences. I have explained how scripture as a whole gives us insight into what those two or three sentences mean. You reject such a meta view of these sentences, opting for your myopic view, which contradicts the rest of scripture in regards to atonement and justification by faith. You choose to live with the contradiction and ignore it. I don't ignore the contradiction. In fact, I recognized the contradiction and had to confront the problem of unlimited atonement. I held your view. I argued your position. I kept reading scripture because the conflict was ever before me in scripture. However, when I noticed that the context of God's writing was for the elect, I noticed that God addresses the whole of His elect as...you guessed it...all. He wasn't referring to all humanity. The world he referred to as "all" is the chosen people of God. The chosen people live in all the world. We exist from every tribe and tongue as God chooses to call us. Jesus blood that was purchased for us speaks a better word. Jesus blood purchases us, it justifies us, it gives us faith to believe we are justified by Christ alone, apart from any work we do.
Jesus blood does not speak to those who die in their sins. It does not purchase their guilt. It does not justify them. They are judged entirely upon their own works, which are filthy. The only reason why you and I are not judged similarly is because God justifies us by Jesus sacrificial atonement and gives us faith to believe it.
Josiah, you know this is true. There is no more to say. You can remain in your contradiction or not. Your belief in unlimited atonement will not cancel out God's choice to redeem you. We agree on this. You simply refuse to look at scripture without the bias of your denominationalism, preferring their opinion over scripture. Tradition over God in His word.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, you can go back through this thread and read the scriptures shared with you.

None of which say what you do. Like all other radical Calvinists for over 400 years, you can't find the verse that says, "Actually that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME."

You have admitted there are "two or three" Scriptures that specifically STATE the exact opposite of this weird, horrible dogma invented by a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists in the late 16th Century. Actually there are many more but you admit to "two or three". And of course the teaching that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "and also for all others" "for the whole world" is found not only over and over again in literal, direct, verbatim words in Scripture but also in the Ecumenical Council of Orange. And until a tiny number of radical Calvinists, for over 1500 years, every Christian on the planet accepted and believed what God so clearly, boldly, directly stated.

You choose to live with the contradiction

No, you are the one living with the contradiction with God's Scriptures, with the Council of Orange, with 100% of Christians before a tiny few radical later-day Calvinists invented your idea and 99.99% of them since (including every Calvinist personally known to me, they all reject your idea) You are living with contradicting First John 2:2 and many, many, many more bold, clear, direct, consistent Scriptures.

You simply refuse to believe scripture without the bias of your denominationalism, preferring the horrible invention of a tiny few radical later-day Calvinists over clear, consistent, direct, Scripture.




.

 

[MennoSota]

None of which say what you do. Like all other radical Calvinists for over 400 years, you can't find the verse that says, "Actually that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME."

You have admitted there are "two or three" Scriptures that specifically STATE the exact opposite of this weird, horrible dogma invented by a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists in the late 16th Century. Actually there are many more but you admit to "two or three". And of course the teaching that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "and also for all others" "for the whole world" is found not only over and over again in literal, direct, verbatim words in Scripture but also in the Ecumenical Council of Orange. And until a tiny number of radical Calvinists, for over 1500 years, every Christian on the planet accepted and believed what God so clearly, boldly, directly stated.







No, you are the one living with the contradiction with God's Scriptures, with the Council of Orange, with 100% of Christians before a tiny few radical later-day Calvinists invented your idea and 99.99% of them since (including every Calvinist personally known to me, they all reject your idea) You are living with contradicting First John 2:2 and many, many, many more bold, clear, direct, consistent Scriptures.

You simply refuse to believe scripture without the bias of your denominationalism, preferring the horrible invention of a tiny few radical later-day Calvinists over clear, consistent, direct, Scripture.




.

Did you just copy and paste?
The contradiction is yours. Scripture has sufficiently proved limited atonement with no contradiction. You must live with the quandry that remains with unlimited atonement.

 

[Josiah]

The contradiction is yours.

No.

You've admitted that there are "two or three" Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all (actually, there are MANY more)..... but you flat out, exactly contradict that. Even though you show you (like all other radical Calvinists for 400+ years) are having one whale of a time finding that verse that states, "Actually that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME." The contradiction is yours. Not only with so many clear, bold, literal, direct, consistent, verbatim Scripture statements but with the Ecumenical Council of Orange and nearly every Christian who has ever believed (including EVERY Calvinist personally known to me, all of whom reject this invention of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists).



First John 2:2

John 3:16-17

John 12:47

Romans 5:18

Second Corinthians 5:14-15

Second Corinthians 5:19

Ephesians 3:8-9

First Timothy 2:6

First Timothy 4:10

Hebrews 2:9

Second Peter 2:1

First John 4:14

and so very, very, very many more.......


And where are the verses that state, "No, actually none of that is true, Christ did not die for all but for ONLY SOME." Where is that verse?





.

.

 

[MennoSota]

No.

You've admitted that there are "two or three" Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all (actually, there are MANY more)..... but you flat out, exactly contradict that. Even though you show you (like all other radical Calvinists for 400+ years) are having one whale of a time finding that verse that states, "Actually that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME." The contradiction is yours. Not only with so many clear, bold, literal, direct, consistent, verbatim Scripture statements but with the Ecumenical Council of Orange and nearly every Christian who has ever believed (including EVERY Calvinist personally known to me, all of whom reject this invention of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists).




.

Do you plug your ears, Josiah?
I have addressed your two or three sentences claim on multiple occasions. Just admit you reject viewing scripture as a whole and prefer to view scripture in a box. That will go a long way in resolving the issue.

 

[Andrew]

No.

You've admitted that there are "two or three" Scriptures that state that Jesus died for all (actually, there are MANY more)..... but you flat out, exactly contradict that. Even though you show you (like all other radical Calvinists for 400+ years) are having one whale of a time finding that verse that states, "Actually that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME." The contradiction is yours. Not only with so many clear, bold, literal, direct, consistent, verbatim Scripture statements but with the Ecumenical Council of Orange and nearly every Christian who has ever believed (including EVERY Calvinist personally known to me, all of whom reject this invention of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists).




.

Show me in scripture where Jesus lays his life down for goats, if you can't then I assume he laid his life down solely for his Sheep aka his Elect.

 

[Josiah]

Show me in scripture where Jesus lays his life down for goats, if you can't then I assume he laid his life down solely for his Sheep aka his Elect.

Scripture never says that Jesus died for bunny rabbits or rattlesnakes or mice or Toyotas or popcorn or cornbread. I never remotely said He did.



Here's just a small sample of the many verses that STATE He died for all people (there are many more).


First John 2:2

John 3:16-17

John 12:47

Romans 5:18

Second Corinthians 5:14-15

Second Corinthians 5:19

Ephesians 3:8-9

First Timothy 2:6

First Timothy 4:10

Hebrews 2:9

Second Peter 2:1

First John 4:14

and so very, very, very many more.......



Here's a list of the verses that state that all that is false and that Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME....









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAfmvRKIVU








.

 

[Andrew]

Scripture never says that Jesus died for bunny rabbits or rattlesnakes or mice or Toyotas or popcorn. I never remotely said He did.


Here's just a small sample of the many verses that STATE He died for all people (there are many more).



Here's a list of the verses that state that all that is false and that Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY SOME....




.

he died for his sheep exclusively tho right? I mean, that IS what Jesus SPOKE correct? Unless it's just one of those darn typos again

 

[RichWh1]

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
1 Timothy 1:15

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 3:21-24




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[MoreCoffee]

We owe the "success" of this thread to Calvinists and Lutherans who just cannot agree and will fight tooth, claw, and nail until the bitter end.

Objectively considered the idea that Jesus Christ died for all is so clear and so obvious in holy scripture that it ought to have generated only a few posts saying "amen".

But with Lutherans and calvinists in the same forum we can be assured of endless cycles of "yes he did" and "no he didn't" couched in all sorts of crazy theological language.

Well, you have my thanks. You've made my thread HUGE just as the same factions also made my other threads Justification and the one about salvation HUGE.

Congrats folk.

God bless America!

And all that stuff ...

:smirk:

 

[Josiah]

the idea that Jesus Christ died for all is so clear and so obvious in holy scripture that it ought to have generated only a few posts saying "amen".

.

... and it IS except by a very, very small group of radical Calvinists for the past 400 years or so.

You've made my thread HUGE just as the same factions also made my other threads Justification and the one about salvation HUGE.

IMO, some issues are foundational to Christianity, as you put it "crazy" destroys or at least seriously endangers the entire faith. The Gospel is worth "fighting" for (as you put it). And since you are Catholic, I might add it was the RCC 500 years ago that declared these are the critical issues that it choose to split itself (again!) over, issues SO important as to "justify" splitting itself and burning Christians at the stake over. Perhaps you disagree with your denomination.



https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior




[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


Please read post 812 and watch the video.


.

 

[Andrew]

... and it IS except by a very, very small group of radical Calvinists for the past 400 years or so.









IMO, some issues are foundational to Christianity, as you put it "crazy" destroys or at least seriously endangers the entire faith. The Gospel is worth "fighting" for (as you put it). And since you are Catholic, I might add it was the RCC 500 years ago that declared these are the critical issues that it choose to split itself (again!) over, issues SO important as to "justify" splitting itself and burning Christians at the stake over. Perhaps you disagree with your denomination.



https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior




[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


Please read post 812 and watch the video.


.

The guy says over and over "Jesus did not just die for us believers but also for non believers", the present body of believers is not the final body! Believers are added daily, I find his wording to be somewhat deceptive but not necessarily intentional.
Again he says that Jesus is Savior of all but that there is this very narrow group of believers, he doesn't address if he means believers in the present tense or for many to come, THIS is why it's truly fair and wise to call believers now and to come The Elect that way there is no confusion of present and future believers.
He also made the mistake that Jesus prays for the world, I don't know why he would say that, but here is a series of verses from Jesus own mouth, who speaks of his flock whom the father has given him as being both present and coming in the future..
He makes it extremely clear that he did NOT come for the world but for those the Father has given him who are IN the world.

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
John 17:8-26

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus Christ really did died for all

 

[Andrew]

Jesus Christ really did died for all

Goats too?? Because it clearly says he lays down his life for the sheep :/

 

[RichWh1]

Because Jesus died for all doesn’t mean that all will come to Him.
His death was sufficient for all, efficient for the elect.



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