Regeneration

[MennoSota]

One more time ...

[Eph 1:13 NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ

Q. Where were the saints at the beginning of verse 13?
A. IN CHRIST.

I never claimed that hearing means you are In Christ, I claimed that those who “believed” and “were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit” were already IN CHRIST when THEY heard ... “you also were included in Christ when you heard” ... because that is what the scripture you posted says.

Why don’t you believe your own proof text?

Perhaps this will help ...

[Eph 1:3-6 NIV] 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

When did all this happen, before or after they believed?


[Eph 1:7-10 NIV] 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment--to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

When was the blood of Christ shed to purchase our redemption, before or after we believed? When did God make known the mystery of His purpose in Christ to save fallen men, before or after we believed?


[Eph 1:11-12 NIV] 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

When were we ‘chosen’ IN CHRIST and ‘predestined’ according to the plan of God, before or after we believed?


Next comes YOUR proof text ...

[Eph 1:13-14 NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Where were we included when we heard the message? Whose possession are we? Based on the verses leading up to this point, did all this happen before or after we believed?

Here's how I envision some at the CH when they are provided scripture that shows they are wrong.
I also envision them chanting "I hate John Calvin" when reading these verses and plugging their ears.
It is the crutch they must bear.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Christ in you and you in Christ are two different things. When we are saved Christ comes into us, after that we learn to walk with God closer and closer with less and less of the world in us and we are in Christ.

When we are saved, Jesus lives in us and puts us in him.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Here's how I envision some at the CH when they are provided scripture that shows they are wrong.
I also envision them chanting "I hate John Calvin" when reading these verses and plugging their ears.
It is the crutch they must bear.

If you were in a deserted place and NEVER heard anything about Jesus ever, and you only had the Bible, tell me how you would get saved and get understanding.

 

[MennoSota]

If you were in a deserted place and NEVER heard anything about Jesus ever, and you only had the Bible, tell me how you would get saved and get understanding.

First, if God did not choose to adopt me, I would die in my trespasses and sins. The Bible would not make sense. It would be foolishness.
However...
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
...God might graciously slice through my sin and make me alive with Christ.
God knows what He would will. I am completely dependent upon the Sovereign Kings decision. If He condemns me, he is justified in doing so for I was born in rebellion and my rebellion deserves swift death. If He pardons me, it is solely because Jesus paid my debt and redeemed me. Should I hear the words "redeemed", I will need to believe it. How can I believe it? The Sovereign King must give me faith. Upon believing, I will fall at the feet of the Sovereign King and repent deeply of my rebellious ways.
How will I know this to be true? Because the Bible tells me it is true and I trust my Sovereign Kings book.

And that, my dear friend, is how God saved me.

 

[atpollard]

I agree with this ...

[Jhn 3:18-20 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Jhn 6:43-44 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

[Jhn 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Men seek to hide in darkness (John 3:19-20), yet those that the Father draws to Jesus (John 6:44) are Jesus’ sheep who follow Him (John 10:27), and believe (John 3:18) and will never perish (John 6:44, John 10:28).

 

[YourTruthGod]

I agree with this ...

[Jhn 3:18-20 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Jhn 6:43-44 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

[Jhn 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Men seek to hide in darkness (John 3:19-20), yet those that the Father draws to Jesus (John 6:44) are Jesus’ sheep who follow Him (John 10:27), and believe (John 3:18) and will never perish (John 6:44, John 10:28).

Explain to me who the lost sheep of Israel are. I don't think you know or you would not use some of those scriptures the way you do.

 

[atpollard]

Explain to me who the lost sheep of Israel are. I don't think you know or you would not use some of those scriptures the way you do.

No.
I am under no obligation to chase bunny trails of your choosing.

If you believe I am incorrect in my interpretation of scripture, then feel free to offer an exegesis of the verses you believe I have misunderstood. Please enlighten me using the surrounding context, or the sentence structure, or the original language. Perhaps you have some classic commentary by a historic theologian. I await your edification, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[YourTruthGod]

First, if God did not choose to adopt me, I would die in my trespasses and sins.

Because God does not save unbelieving, unrepentant sinners.

The Bible would not make sense. It would be foolishness.

Maybe to you! That is probably why you don't believe it but rather you believe Calvin.

However...
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
...God might graciously slice through my sin and make me alive with Christ.

If you believe and obey Him.

God knows what He would will.

And He says it in the Bible and you don't believe it.

I am completely dependent upon the Sovereign Kings decision. If He condemns me, he is justified in doing so for I was born in rebellion and my rebellion deserves swift death. If He pardons me, it is solely because Jesus paid my debt and redeemed me. Should I hear the words "redeemed", I will need to believe it. How can I believe it? The Sovereign King must give me faith.

God doesn't supernaturally put faith in someone who hate Him. Faith comes from a very human way, from hearing the supernatural message.

Upon believing, I will fall at the feet of the Sovereign King and repent deeply of my rebellious ways.

Nowhere anywhere in the Bible does it say God saves unbelievers.

How will I know this to be true? Because the Bible tells me it is true and I trust my Sovereign Kings book.

The Bible says repeatedly to believe and then you will be saved.
Nowhere anywhere does it say you will be saved first in a state of unbelief and hate for God.

And that, my dear friend, is how God saved me.

So, while you were in that deserted place and had the Bible that you had never seen before and never heard about...you read about someone from God named Jesus, born to a virgin, to take away the sins of the world...and the first thing he taught was repent of sins and believe in him for the forgiveness of sins...he stressed the need for faith in him...and you don't believe any of that on your own and repent of your sins and believe?

 

[YourTruthGod]

No.
I am under no obligation to chase bunny trails of your choosing.

If you believe I am incorrect in my interpretation of scripture, then feel free to offer an exegesis of the verses you believe I have misunderstood. Please enlighten me using the surrounding context, or the sentence structure, or the original language. Perhaps you have some classic commentary by a historic theologian. I await your edification, but I am not holding my breath.

I am glad that you asked.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel.

The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

See, Jesus was coming to make a new covenant that would be based on faith.

The old covenant was not based on faith, but rather on the purification works of the law.

There were Jews who had faith and did the purification works of the law; and, there were Jews who did not have faith and did the purification works of the law.

Jews who had faith and Jews who did not, both had to do the purification works of the law.

The purification works of the law was about the Jews cleaning themselves to be in a covenant with God.

God did not like it though that Jews would do a righteous act for sins, but not really be sorry for their sins.

God said He would make a new covenant based on faith.

So when Jesus came, God cut off all the Jews who did not ALREADY have faith with Him.

God cut off those Jews and hardened them, so that while Jesus preached they could not be saved.

Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith. They were God's, and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.

Jesus also said that when he is crucified, then all could come to him to be saved, even the Jews who had been cut off and bound to the same place as the disobedient Gentiles.

When you read in John about how no one could come to God unless He draws them, it is during this time when cut off Jews were not allowed.

 

[Josiah]

I agree with this ...

[Jhn 3:18-20 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Jhn 6:43-44 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

[Jhn 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Men seek to hide in darkness (John 3:19-20), yet those that the Father draws to Jesus (John 6:44) are Jesus’ sheep who follow Him (John 10:27), and believe (John 3:18) and will never perish (John 6:44, John 10:28).

I also agree with the Bible on this.




.

 

[atpollard]

I am glad that you asked.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel.

The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

See, Jesus was coming to make a new covenant that would be based on faith.

The old covenant was not based on faith, but rather on the purification works of the law.

There were Jews who had faith and did the purification works of the law; and, there were Jews who did not have faith and did the purification works of the law.

Jews who had faith and Jews who did not, both had to do the purification works of the law.

The purification works of the law was about the Jews cleaning themselves to be in a covenant with God.

God did not like it though that Jews would do a righteous act for sins, but not really be sorry for their sins.

God said He would make a new covenant based on faith.

So when Jesus came, God cut off all the Jews who did not ALREADY have faith with Him.

God cut off those Jews and hardened them, so that while Jesus preached they could not be saved.

Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith. They were God's, and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.

Jesus also said that when he is crucified, then all could come to him to be saved, even the Jews who had been cut off and bound to the same place as the disobedient Gentiles.

When you read in John about how no one could come to God unless He draws them, it is during this time when cut off Jews were not allowed.

Are you an Apostle?

I only ask because if you are an Apostle, then you can write Spirit inspired opinions that carry the weight of Holy Scripture and settle a matter.
If you are not an Apostle, then your scripture-less opinions are nothing more than unproven opinions.

Perhaps you would care to substantiate a few of your many claims with some scripture. So far, you have not even bothered to offer any Biblical evidence that there is a “lost sheep of Israel”.

I will offer one response to your “opinions” that requires no Biblical support ...

Since virtually everything that I point to in one of the four Gospels you have claimed is talking about Israel, does ANY of the Gospel apply to gentiles or should we just start with Acts and the letters from Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles)?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I guess that by regeneration you mean being born from above [or born again] of the Spirit and water as Jesus said - unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. If that is so then it is a work that God performs when a person is baptised.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I guess that by regeneration you mean being born from above [or born again] of the Spirit and water as Jesus said - unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. If that is so then it is a work that God performs when a person is baptised.

Jesus saves us all on his own, and he tells us why he saves those he saves. Jesus saves those who obey him.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Are you an Apostle?

There are no more Apostles.
Jesus is the Teacher and only direct knowledge WITHOUT SCRIPTURE is given to the apostles.

I only ask because if you are an Apostle, then you can write Spirit inspired opinions that carry the weight of Holy Scripture and settle a matter.

We have the scriptures to settle a matter.

If you are not an Apostle, then your scripture-less opinions are nothing more than unproven opinions.

Perhaps you would care to substantiate a few of your many claims with some scripture.

I always give scriptures.

So far, you have not even bothered to offer any Biblical evidence that there is a “lost sheep of Israel”.

I will offer one response to your “opinions” that requires no Biblical support ...

Since virtually everything that I point to in one of the four Gospels you have claimed is talking about Israel, does ANY of the Gospel apply to gentiles or should we just start with Acts and the letters from Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles)?

What Jesus says is to all; however, it was first to the Jews who had faith.

 

[Andrew]

Are you an Apostle?

I only ask because if you are an Apostle, then you can write Spirit inspired opinions that carry the weight of Holy Scripture and settle a matter.
If you are not an Apostle, then your scripture-less opinions are nothing more than unproven opinions.

Perhaps you would care to substantiate a few of your many claims with some scripture. So far, you have not even bothered to offer any Biblical evidence that there is a “lost sheep of Israel”.

I will offer one response to your “opinions” that requires no Biblical support ...

Since virtually everything that I point to in one of the four Gospels you have claimed is talking about Israel, does ANY of the Gospel apply to gentiles or should we just start with Acts and the letters from Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles)?

I thought the lost sheep of israel were added at the day of Pentecost when all Jews and gentiles became the promised seed?

 

[YourTruthGod]

First, if God did not choose to adopt me, I would die in my trespasses and sins. The Bible would not make sense. It would be foolishness.
However...
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
...God might graciously slice through my sin and make me alive with Christ.
God knows what He would will. I am completely dependent upon the Sovereign Kings decision. If He condemns me, he is justified in doing so for I was born in rebellion and my rebellion deserves swift death. If He pardons me, it is solely because Jesus paid my debt and redeemed me. Should I hear the words "redeemed", I will need to believe it. How can I believe it? The Sovereign King must give me faith. Upon believing, I will fall at the feet of the Sovereign King and repent deeply of my rebellious ways.
How will I know this to be true? Because the Bible tells me it is true and I trust my Sovereign Kings book.

And that, my dear friend, is how God saved me.

God chooses those who do right.

You say you did not do anything right.

 

[atpollard]

What Jesus says is to all; however, it was first to the Jews who had faith.

Like ...

[Jhn 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. ... [Rom 3:9-12 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

[Jhn 6:44-45 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

[Jhn 10:14-17 NASB] 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

[Jhn 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

 

[atpollard]

I always give scriptures.

Fair enough. Then perhaps you could identify the source of these scriptures ...

I am glad that you asked.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel.

The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews who already belonged to God by faith.

See, Jesus was coming to make a new covenant that would be based on faith.

The old covenant was not based on faith, but rather on the purification works of the law.

There were Jews who had faith and did the purification works of the law; and, there were Jews who did not have faith and did the purification works of the law.

Jews who had faith and Jews who did not, both had to do the purification works of the law.

The purification works of the law was about the Jews cleaning themselves to be in a covenant with God.

God did not like it though that Jews would do a righteous act for sins, but not really be sorry for their sins.

God said He would make a new covenant based on faith.

So when Jesus came, God cut off all the Jews who did not ALREADY have faith with Him.

God cut off those Jews and hardened them, so that while Jesus preached they could not be saved.

Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith. They were God's, and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.

Jesus also said that when he is crucified, then all could come to him to be saved, even the Jews who had been cut off and bound to the same place as the disobedient Gentiles.

When you read in John about how no one could come to God unless He draws them, it is during this time when cut off Jews were not allowed.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Fair enough. Then perhaps you could identify the source of these scriptures ...

Do you really not know where the scriptures are about 'lost sheep' and 'old covenant' and 'faith'?

Why do you come acting like you can teach when you don't know where those scriptures are?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Like ...

[Jhn 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. ... [Rom 3:9-12 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

[Jhn 6:44-45 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

[Jhn 10:14-17 NASB] 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

[Jhn 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

All the scriptures about JESUS ARE TO ALL.

What kind of limited God do you think we have?