Regeneration

[MennoSota]

That scripture does not say we cannot obey and believe God on our own.



God draws everyone.

Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith. Only those Jews could come to Jesus to be saved.
When Jesus was crucified then all could come to him to be saved. He came only for the lost sheep of Israel.


That is about a man who is only interested in pleasing his flesh.


They could have sight if they come to Jesus. They prefer their sin.


Those are the people blinded by sin.



Read the rest of the passage. You will see that there are those who do right and come to the light.


Paul is quoting the old testament. Paul is explaining to the Gentiles that the Jews were sinful too.
You were taught wrong about every scripture.


No one gets wisdom until after they obey.

Psalm 119:100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.


No one gets understanding until after they obey.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

2 Timothy 2:25 correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

John 8:30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him. 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You are too afraid to go against those words of God aren't you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Calvinist theology works mightily to make human nature base and repugnant so that they can say grace is glorious. Well, grace is glorious but human nature is not base and repugnant in every person and not all have hard hearts that reject the gospel. Take to heart the words of Jesus Christ and learn. He told me that, he said "Listen, then, to the parable of the sower. With anyone who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, evil comes and carries away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received the seed by the side of the road. Then whoever has received the seed upon a rocky place, this is one who hears the word and promptly accepts it with joy. But he has no root in himself, so it is only for a time; then, when tribulation and persecution occur because of the word, he promptly stumbles. And whoever has received the seed among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the falseness of riches suffocate the word, and he is effectively without fruit. Yet truly, whoever has received the seed into good soil, this is he who hears the word, and understands it, and so he bears fruit, and he produces: some a hundred fold, and another sixty fold, and another thirty fold.”

The quality of the receptive heart is what decides the yield of good fruit at the time of harvest. No one can deny it yet some say that a person's heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked because they read what a prophet says about Israel and attempt to make it into a slogan for their theology.

 

[YourTruthGod]

To all those false teachers here who say God saves us first then we believe, stop preaching that falseness:

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


HAVING BELIEVED, YOU WERE MARKED IN HIM.

 

[Josiah]

To all those false teachers here who say God saves us first then we believe, stop preaching that falseness

No one is saying that. The Bible says that God saves us via faith, not void of it, and that faith is "the free gift of God."

We are rejecting your godless, Christless, Crossless, merciless, graceless, only Law, repudiation of the Gospel, your pure works-righteousness. No, the dead don't give self life.... the atheist doesn't save himself.... the dead don't create faith and give it to self. This is a Christian forum and we believe in Christ.


https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior


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[YourTruthGod]

No one is saying that. The Bible says that God saves us via faith, not void of it, and that faith is "the free gift of God."

We are rejecting your godless, Christless, Crossless, merciless, graceless, only Law, repudiation of the Gospel, your pure works-righteousness. No, the dead don't give self life.... the atheist doesn't save himself.... the dead don't create faith and give it to self. This is a Christian forum and we believe in Christ.


.

You say no one is saying it---THEN YOU SAY IT.

God DOES NOT SAVE the UNBELIEVERS.

AND, there is NEVER EVER a wrong time to obey Jesus.

Just listen to yourself. You deny saying something and then say it.

Just listen to yourself and how bad you go against me for preaching obedience to God's Word.

 

[YourTruthGod]

No one is saying that. The Bible says that God saves us via faith, not void of it, and that faith is "the free gift of God."

We are rejecting your godless, Christless, Crossless, merciless, graceless, only Law, repudiation of the Gospel, your pure works-righteousness. No, the dead don't give self life.... the atheist doesn't save himself.... the dead don't create faith and give it to self. This is a Christian forum and we believe in Christ.

.

Just listen to what you say against Jesus who says to believe and repent, to obey his commands, just look at what you say to my preaching that. You say it is godless, Christless, crossless, merciless, graceless, only Law, repudiation of the Gospel, your pure works-righteousness.

I have been telling you what the Bible says about DOING WHAT JESUS SAYS and for that, you say all those lies about me. I tell people we are to get Jesus' teaching from the New Testament and do what he says by repenting of your sins to God through him and believing his SHED BLOOD ON THE CROSS washes those sins away, but YOU SAY that is godless, Christless, crossless, no mercy, no grace, only law, etc.

You have got to be ensnared to speak those lies about me and my speaking what Jesus himself says.

 

[atpollard]

To all those false teachers here who say God saves us first then we believe, stop preaching that falseness:

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


HAVING BELIEVED, YOU WERE MARKED IN HIM.

Salvation according to Ephesians 1:13:

Step 1 ... “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth” ... at the moment you “heard”, you were already “IN CHRIST”. Someone IN CHRIST is already saved.

Step 2 ... “Having believed“ ... After the person already IN CHRIST hears, then he/she believes. So saved, then hear, then believe.

Step 3 ... “you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit” ... The marking of a seal comes at the end of a document or agreement to establish ownership, authenticity and binding terms. It is only after believing that the already IN CHRIST person is marked with the permanent mark of God’s promise and ownership, the Holy Spirit. So saved, then hear, then believe, then sealed.

Here is your chance to prove that you do not reinterpret scripture to suit YOUR PERSONAL doctrine, but simply read and believe and obey (as you claim).

Read it ... IN CHRIST > hear > believe > sealed ... and believe it.

 

[MennoSota]

Calvinist theology works mightily to make human nature base and repugnant so that they can say grace is glorious. Well, grace is glorious but human nature is not base and repugnant in every person and not all have hard hearts that reject the gospel. Take to heart the words of Jesus Christ and learn. He told me that, he said "Listen, then, to the parable of the sower. With anyone who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, evil comes and carries away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received the seed by the side of the road. Then whoever has received the seed upon a rocky place, this is one who hears the word and promptly accepts it with joy. But he has no root in himself, so it is only for a time; then, when tribulation and persecution occur because of the word, he promptly stumbles. And whoever has received the seed among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the falseness of riches suffocate the word, and he is effectively without fruit. Yet truly, whoever has received the seed into good soil, this is he who hears the word, and understands it, and so he bears fruit, and he produces: some a hundred fold, and another sixty fold, and another thirty fold.”

The quality of the receptive heart is what decides the yield of good fruit at the time of harvest. No one can deny it yet some say that a person's heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked because they read what a prophet says about Israel and attempt to make it into a slogan for their theology.

Is that parable your reasoning for the nature of the human condition? Explain how that parable teaches about the nature of the human condition.
Do you ignore...

Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 6:20-23 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Colossians 1:21-22 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
1 Peter 2:4-10 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Notice...nothing about John Calvin. Just God speaking to us.

 

[MennoSota]

Titus 1:10-11,13-16 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

 

[atpollard]

Rome says:

Calvinist theology works mightily to make human nature base and repugnant so that they can say grace is glorious. Well, grace is glorious but human nature is not base and repugnant in every person and not all have hard hearts that reject the gospel. Take to heart the words of Jesus Christ and learn. He told me that, he said "Listen, then, to the parable of the sower. With anyone who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, evil comes and carries away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received the seed by the side of the road. Then whoever has received the seed upon a rocky place, this is one who hears the word and promptly accepts it with joy. But he has no root in himself, so it is only for a time; then, when tribulation and persecution occur because of the word, he promptly stumbles. And whoever has received the seed among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the falseness of riches suffocate the word, and he is effectively without fruit. Yet truly, whoever has received the seed into good soil, this is he who hears the word, and understands it, and so he bears fruit, and he produces: some a hundred fold, and another sixty fold, and another thirty fold.”

The quality of the receptive heart is what decides the yield of good fruit at the time of harvest. No one can deny it yet some say that a person's heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked because they read what a prophet says about Israel and attempt to make it into a slogan for their theology.

... But God says:

[Jhn 1:5, 9-11 NASB] 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. ... 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

[Jhn 2:24-25 NASB] 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.

[Jhn 3:18-20 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Jhn 3:36 NASB] 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

[Rom 1:18-21, 24, 26, 28 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. ... 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. ... 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ... 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

[Rom 3:9-12 NASB] 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

[Eph 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Salvation according to Ephesians 1:13:

Step 1 ... “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth” ... at the moment you “heard”, you were already “IN CHRIST”. Someone IN CHRIST is already saved.

No such scripture that says just hearing means you are in Christ.
Many people hear about Christ and even believe and they are not saved.

Step 2 ... “Having believed“ ... After the person already IN CHRIST hears, then he/she believes. So saved, then hear, then believe.

Step 3 ... “you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit” ... [/QUOTE]

Did you not read that? No one is IN JESUS until they have the Spirit.

The marking of a seal comes at the end of a document or agreement to establish ownership, authenticity and binding terms. It is only after believing that the already IN CHRIST person is marked with the permanent mark of God’s promise and ownership, the Holy Spirit. So saved, then hear, then believe, then sealed.

Here is your chance to prove that you do not reinterpret scripture to suit YOUR PERSONAL doctrine, but simply read and believe and obey (as you claim).

Read it ... IN CHRIST > hear > believe > sealed ... and believe it.

You don't even know that we are NOT in Christ until we have the Spirit.

 

[psalms 91]

Christ in you and you in Christ are two different things. When we are saved Christ comes into us, after that we learn to walk with God closer and closer with less and less of the world in us and we are in Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Rome says:...

You started with an error. It is not the city of Rome that says what you included in a quote. Nor was it any person in Rome who said it. It was me, I wrote it, except for the quote from the Lord Jesus Christ. It was one of the apostles who wrote the quote.. I wrote:

Calvinist theology works mightily to make human nature base and repugnant so that they can say grace is glorious. Well, grace is glorious but human nature is not base and repugnant in every person and not all have hard hearts that reject the gospel. Take to heart the words of Jesus Christ and learn. He told me that, he said

"Listen, then, to the parable of the sower. With anyone who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, evil comes and carries away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received the seed by the side of the road. Then whoever has received the seed upon a rocky place, this is one who hears the word and promptly accepts it with joy. But he has no root in himself, so it is only for a time; then, when tribulation and persecution occur because of the word, he promptly stumbles. And whoever has received the seed among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of this age and the falseness of riches suffocate the word, and he is effectively without fruit. Yet truly, whoever has received the seed into good soil, this is he who hears the word, and understands it, and so he bears fruit, and he produces: some a hundred fold, and another sixty fold, and another thirty fold.”​

The quality of the receptive heart is what decides the yield of good fruit at the time of harvest. No one can deny it yet some say that a person's heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked because they read what a prophet says about Israel and attempt to make it into a slogan for their theology.​

And I enjoyed writing it.

 

[atpollard]

No such scripture that says just hearing means you are in Christ.
Many people hear about Christ and even believe and they are not saved.

One more time ...

[Eph 1:13 NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ

Q. Where were the saints at the beginning of verse 13?
A. IN CHRIST.

I never claimed that hearing means you are In Christ, I claimed that those who “believed” and “were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit” were already IN CHRIST when THEY heard ... “you also were included in Christ when you heard” ... because that is what the scripture you posted says.

Why don’t you believe your own proof text?

Perhaps this will help ...

[Eph 1:3-6 NIV] 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

When did all this happen, before or after they believed?


[Eph 1:7-10 NIV] 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment--to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

When was the blood of Christ shed to purchase our redemption, before or after we believed? When did God make known the mystery of His purpose in Christ to save fallen men, before or after we believed?


[Eph 1:11-12 NIV] 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

When were we ‘chosen’ IN CHRIST and ‘predestined’ according to the plan of God, before or after we believed?


Next comes YOUR proof text ...

[Eph 1:13-14 NIV] 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Where were we included when we heard the message? Whose possession are we? Based on the verses leading up to this point, did all this happen before or after we believed?

 

[MoreCoffee]

One more time ...

Please, no more times.

Once was too much.

Error is not edifying even once but your post makes it a vicious cycle.

 

[atpollard]

You started with an error. It is not the city of Rome that says what you included in a quote. Nor was it any person in Rome who said it. It was me, I wrote it, except for the quote from the Lord Jesus Christ. It was one of the apostles who wrote the quote.. I wrote:

And I enjoyed writing it.

And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:6, Matthew 16:12)

 

[atpollard]

Please, no more times.
Once was too much.
Error is not edifying even once but your post makes it a vicious cycle.

:yawning:

 

[MennoSota]

Christ in you and you in Christ are two different things. When we are saved Christ comes into us, after that we learn to walk with God closer and closer with less and less of the world in us and we are in Christ.

Does the Bible teach this? If so, where?

 

[MoreCoffee]

:yawning:

Looks like you may need some sleep.