Jesus Christ, died for all

[MennoSota]

Back to the issue: Is 1 John 2:2 correct and Jesus died for all people OR is the not-yet-found verse correct that states that's wrong and Jesus died for ONLY SOME and not all?

All those for whom Jesus died.
Is the entire world justified? Is the entire world given faith? Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

 

[Josiah]

Is the entire world justified? Is the entire world given faith?

Not according to the Bible.

But yes, Jesus died for all , just as the Bible states SO MANY times.... directly, clearly, boldly, literally, verbatim.


When you can find the verse or verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but rather only for some" let us know. Until you do, we will stick with all those many, many, many Scriptures that so powerfully, so directly STATE that Jesus died for all. I'm not comfortable with taking ALL these MANY Scriptures and insisting they are wrong and spinning them 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, so that they "mean" the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they all so boldly, clearly STATE; this rubric that Truth is the exact opposite of what the Bible so often, so consistently STATES right there in black and white. Over and over.




.

 

[MennoSota]

Not according to the Bible.

But yes, Jesus died for all , just as the Bible states SO MANY times.... directly, clearly, boldly, literally, verbatim.


When you can find the verse or verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but rather only for some" let us know. Until you do, we will stick with all those many, many, many Scriptures that so powerfully, so directly STATE that Jesus died for all. I'm not comfortable with taking ALL these MANY Scriptures and insisting they are wrong and spinning them 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, so that they "mean" the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they all so boldly, clearly STATE; this rubric that Truth is the exact opposite of what the Bible so often, so consistently STATES right there in black and white. Over and over.

So...
Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

 

[MennoSota]

So...
Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

By the way, Josiah, you don't have many verses. You have about two or three, in which you have to ignore the rest of scripture in order to hold your position.

 

[Josiah]

By the way, Josiah, you don't have many verses. You have about two or three, in which you have to ignore the rest of scripture in order to hold your position.

let's pretend I have two or three. You have none; we've been waiting over 400 years for some radical Calvinists to find any verse that says what they do, "Jesus died not for all but for ONLY SOME."


When you can find the verse or verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but rather only for some" let us know. Until you do, we will stick with all those many, many, many Scriptures that so powerfully, so directly STATE that Jesus died for all. I'm not comfortable with taking ALL these MANY Scriptures and insisting they are wrong and spinning them 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, so that they "mean" the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they all so boldly, clearly STATE; this rubric that Truth is the exact opposite of what the Bible so often, so consistently STATES right there in black and white. Over and over.




.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Well we could start by observing that I believe neither of the things you claim. Many people know the truth who are not the pope and the pope is not infallible.

The Catholic denomination teaches that their popes are infallible.

Look, you are the one who made the rude comment to me.

 

[YourTruthGod]

No, I reject your premise that justification is simply Jesus issuing a Command and Dead, atheistic, unregenerate, fallen man saying "Yes, Sir!" and immediately, fully doing it - all without faith, without the Holy Spirit, without grace, without anything but what the Dead one an generate within his lifeless soul. That's what I reject.... what you conveyed.

There is no such thing in the scriptures.

YES, the one justified, the one WITH life, the one WITH the Holy Spirit, the one WITH God - yes, he can obey God (at least to some extent, more than we tend to realize). But that's not the issue here.

To some extent you say. That isn't in the Bible either.

Back to the issue: Is 1 John 2:2 correct and Jesus died for all people OR is the not-yet-found verse correct that states that's wrong and Jesus died for ONLY SOME and not all?

Jesus says you have to believe in him to get saved. He never ever says that he will save you first. Do you want God's Truth or man's truth? Repent for falling for false beliefs and gladly accept the truth.

 

[YourTruthGod]

All those for whom Jesus died.
Is the entire world justified? Is the entire world given faith? Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

Humankind is responsible for rejecting Christ. Christ is not responsible for people rejecting him.

 

[Josiah]

The Catholic denomination teaches that their popes are infallible.

No.


The RCC teaches that the Pope may speak "from the chair" and speak definitively, in it infallibly. But his statement must be in full conformity with established, accepted Catholic teaching (he can't make something up or out of the blue - he can only endorse what is currently being taught) AND it must be in a deliberate, declared "Ex Cathredra" statement. Otherwise, he is only speaking for himself and is no more "infallible" than any priest. I think this last happened in 1904. It's how that denomination "resolves" issues, declaring it's not longer questionable or debatable, matter settled, it's true. Other denominations do this by popular vote in a denominational convention, declaration of the faculty of the seminaries, or some other means. But all denominations do it, typically rarely.



Now back to the issue. Is First John 2:2 (etc. etc.) correct and Jesus died for all OR is the not-yet-found verse correct that states "That's not true, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY SOME." Which is it?



.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Not according to the Bible.

But yes, Jesus died for all , just as the Bible states SO MANY times.... directly, clearly, boldly, literally, verbatim.


When you can find the verse or verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but rather only for some" let us know. Until you do, we will stick with all those many, many, many Scriptures that so powerfully, so directly STATE that Jesus died for all. I'm not comfortable with taking ALL these MANY Scriptures and insisting they are wrong and spinning them 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, so that they "mean" the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they all so boldly, clearly STATE; this rubric that Truth is the exact opposite of what the Bible so often, so consistently STATES right there in black and white. Over and over.




.

Oh wow; you think that Jesus saves people first by making them believe, but you don't believe in limited atonement?

 

[YourTruthGod]

No.


The RCC teaches that the Pope may speak "from the chair" and speak definitively, in it infallibly. But his statement must be in full conformity with established, accepted Catholic teaching (he can't make something up or out of the blue - he can only endorse what is currently being taught) AND it must be in a deliberate, declared "Ex Cathredra" statement. Otherwise, he is only speaking for himself and is no more "infallible" than any priest. I think this last happened in 1904. It's how that denomination "resolves" issues, declaring it's not longer questionable or debatable, matter settled, it's true. Other denominations do this by popular vote in a denominational convention, declaration of the faculty of the seminaries, or some other means. But all denominations do it, typically rarely.



Now back to the issue. Is First John 2:2 (etc. etc.) correct and Jesus died for all OR is the not-yet-found verse correct that states "That's not true, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY SOME." Which is it?



.

I know what the Catholics church teaches. They teach that their popes are infallible.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]
Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

 

[Josiah]

Oh wow; you think that Jesus saves people first by making them believe, but you don't believe in limited atonement?

The Bible teaches that we are Saved by grace in Christ through faith. Theologically, this is expressed as "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." No, virtually none that accept that also accept limited atonement, only a very, very tiny subgroup of Calvinists accept Limited Atonement and they often envelope that weird invention with the elimination of faith, insisting the ONLY THING that determines salvation is Christ's death. I reject limited atonement because it is nowhere taught in Scripture, in Council, in history ... because it flat-out contradicts SO many Scriptures.... and because it effectively eliminates faith from justification.... and it creates a terror it means no one can know if Jesus is their Savior, if their faith is actually embracing what is for them.


What I reject is your presentation that we have to earn our salvation by doing X,Y.Z..... that salvation actually hinges on self doing these things.... salvation by the adequate performance of OUR works, "works righteusness", that the ultimate reason one is going to heaven is because self adequately performed certain things, rewarded for adequately jumping through a bunch of hoops. Jesus only being a possibility maker or helper. The Bible says the dead one is dead (and the dead can't jump). The Bible says no one is even capable of saying the words "Jesus is Lord" with meaning UNLESS the Holy Spirit causes that. The Bible says that salvation and faith are "THE free gift of God." Jesus saves. Not self. It's why I'm a Christian.



https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior





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[MennoSota]

let's pretend I have two or three. You have none; we've been waiting over 400 years for some radical Calvinists to find any verse that says what they do, "Jesus died not for all but for ONLY SOME."


When you can find the verse or verses that state, "Jesus did NOT die for all but rather only for some" let us know. Until you do, we will stick with all those many, many, many Scriptures that so powerfully, so directly STATE that Jesus died for all. I'm not comfortable with taking ALL these MANY Scriptures and insisting they are wrong and spinning them 180 degrees, upside down and inside out, so that they "mean" the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they all so boldly, clearly STATE; this rubric that Truth is the exact opposite of what the Bible so often, so consistently STATES right there in black and white. Over and over.




.

I have provided you with verses. You reject them simply because they don't have your exact wording. You play the fool by doing so.
Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
John 10:11,14-16 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
The particular nature of God found throughout scripture. Josiah, you may now go and hold tightly to your massive contradiction regarding the nature of God and his redemption.

 

[YourTruthGod]

By the way, Josiah, you don't have many verses. You have about two or three, in which you have to ignore the rest of scripture in order to hold your position.

You cannot put not one scripture aside.

 

[MennoSota]

Humankind is responsible for rejecting Christ. Christ is not responsible for people rejecting him.

Humankind is responsible for their own corruption. God is not obligated to save corrupt beings, yet he chooses to do so out of his amazing grace, through the propitiary work of Christ on the cross.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]
Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

I reject your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, your repudiation of the Ecumenical Council of Orange, the faith of 100% of Christians for 1500 years and 99% of them since, your elimination of faith as not having any relevance in justification. I agree with the Bible which says that BOTH Christ's work on the Cross AND faith in such are essential, that faith means such is "credited to you." Without faith, it is not credited to us, it is not received, it is not apprehended, it is not trusted, it is not relied upon.


Since you admit we have Scriptures that state Christ died for all.... and it's obvious you just can't find your verse that states, "That's not true, Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME"... well, then all you have is your false question based on the premise that faith is irrelevant, meaningless, worthless, with no relevance to justification (you even go sp far as to mock it). Friend, there's a reason why folks like you invented universalism..... and a reason why so few Calvinists parrot this horrible and unbiblical invention (not a single Calvinists personally known to me affirms it, including my wife's entire side of the family and the pastor of her former Reformed church).




.

 

[MennoSota]

You cannot put not one scripture aside.

I don't. I explain them in light of all of scripture. It is you, Josiah and others who force the meaning in isolation from the rest of God's word.

 

[MennoSota]

I reject your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, your repudiation of the Ecumenical Council of Orange, the faith of 100% of Christians for 1500 years and 99% of them since, your elimination of faith as not having any relevance in justification. I agree with the Bible which says that BOTH Christ's work on the Cross AND faith in such are essential, that faith means such is "credited to you." Without faith, it is not credited to us, it is not received, it is not apprehended, it is not trusted, it is not relied upon.


Since you admit we have Scriptures that state Christ died for all.... and it's obvious you just can't find your verse that states, "That's not true, Jesus did not die for all but for ONLY SOME"... well, then all you have is your false question based on the premise that faith is irrelevant, meaningless, worthless, with no relevance to justification (you even go sp far as to mock it). Friend, there's a reason why folks like you invented universalism..... and a reason why so few Calvinists parrot this horrible and unbiblical invention (not a single Calvinists personally known to me affirms it, including my wife's entire side of the family and the pastor of her former Reformed church).




.

Is the entire world purchased, bought and paid for, but then thrown into hell anyway because they failed to grab faith by the horns?

I notice you refuse to answer the question.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Humankind is responsible for their own corruption. God is not obligated to save corrupt beings, yet he chooses to do so out of his amazing grace, through the propitiary work of Christ on the cross.

That is insane. You say only God can put faith in someone to believe and obey but then blames those he doesn't save.