Jesus Christ, died for all

[MennoSota]

As everyone knows, I have repeatedly stated that I fully, completely, passionately AGREE with this verse and every word in it! What you won't accept is that it's missing your position, it doesn't help you AT ALL (not a bit), it doesn't say He died ONLY for his sheep.

Your "logic" is that if something is true for one, ergo it cannot be for another. So if I post "Donald Trump is an American citizen" that PROVES that no one else is. How silly. How illogical. Amazing how illogical Calvinists can be.


You simply join all the other radical Calvinists who in over 400 years who cannot find the verse that says what they do. All they can find are all the very many, so very many, verses that specifically, literally, verbatim, flat-out STATES the exact opposite of their new weird dogma.






I am a monergist. And I accept what the Bible so clearly, so often literally states. I don't join you in insisting that a verse that you can't find cancels out all the MANY, MANY Scriptures that STATE the exact opposite of your view, that flat-out contradict it.


It is true that Scripture teaches that God elects some, but it also teaches that Christ died for all. No, this is not a contradiction because justification is not SOLELY the result of Christ's death, FAITH is also essential. The Council of Orange states that while Christ died for all, not all have faith - thus not all are saved. Now, you can ask WHY God doesn't give faith to all, but that's a question the Bible doesn't answer. But the reality that He does not does not make God a liar when He so often, so clearly, so many times that Christ died for all.


Here's the reality: There are MANY, MANY Scriptures that over and over and over again STATE in verbatim, literal words that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. And you can't find even one verse that states that that's not true and that in reality, Jesus died for ONLY some. Your dogma is flat-out contrary to what God says, undeniably contradicted by many clear Scriptures. You have questions but your questions don't make God wrong, they just mean you have questions. God is soverign, not you. God need not submit to you, you are to submit to Him. Your questions don't make God wrong.







QUOTE ME.


Everyone here at CH knows you can't because that's just about the most crazy thing anyone has posted here. You can't quote me because what you say is the opposite of the truth - and everyone knows it. Come on, you are better than that.


I insist that God does not lie. I insist on what everyone knows.... that over and over again, the Bible verbatim, literally STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. And that you can't find the verse that says what you do, that that's not true, that actually Jesus died for ONLY some.







QUOTE ME


Everyone here knows you can't because everyone here knows I never said that.

What I said is what the Bible clearly says: That faith is necessary for justification. I've supported Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, and that seems to really upset you, any mention of faith seems to do that. It's a common radical Calvinist thing, which I suspect is why so much of radical Calvinism ended up in universalism.



When you find the verse that states, "No, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some" share the reference. Until then, I'm standing with 99.99% of Christians, with the Scriptures, with the Council of Orange, and every Calvinist personally known to me and accepting what God so often, so clearly, literally states - and not with some verse you can't find.






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There is no need for Jesus to have to say "Only." That is your foolish demand before you can accept that God has chosen whom He would adopt from before the foundation of the world.
Your demands are foolish.
Jesus said he gave his life for the sheep. That is what I believe. Jesus does not leave behind what He has purchased.

 

[RichWh1]

Free will is man made? That's news to me! So Adam didn't choose to disobey God's command to not eat! Gotcha!!

If free will is man made so is limited atonement! That phrase is found nowhere in the Scripture

We need to take the whole counsel of God not select verses we like that fit our theology.


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[RichWh1]

Could it mean that if you judge others you are condemning yourself?
I can't judge for God, I can't condemn not a single man for I will be judged, condemning myself... therefore I cannot say to an atheist that he or she will never have faith

According to the Scripture we are to judge those within the body of believers, not those outside the body. Those outside God judges them, we are to judge one another.


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[Andrew]

According to the Scripture we are to judge those within the body of believers, not those outside the body. Those outside God judges them, we are to judge one another.


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I agree 100% we are to judge those in the Body
I believe we judge even the angels as well

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is not a correct interpretation of the verse. The Word 'pan' Greek means all inclusive not for all time
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Nope.

"pan" does mean all but it does not necessarily mean "all people" and it can mean "all time" just as "all" in English can in expressions like "I'm telling you that Jesus died once for all never to die again"

 

[Josiah]

There is no need for Jesus to have to say "Only."

There is if the entire Dogma is "ONLY" ... and certainly if it is going to call out all the MANY, MANY Scriptures that specifically, flat-out, verbatim, literally STATE "all people" "everyone" "the whole world" and you are going to dogmatically insist all those verses are wrong.

That is your foolish demand before you can accept that God has chosen whom He would adopt from before the foundation of the world.

You have the wrong thread. This discussion is not about Election, it's about the new, weird, horrible invention of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY some.

As has been explained to you, the Council of Orange (from which we get the teaching of Predestination) states that predestination relates to those given faith, NOT to those for whom Christ died. To argue, as you do, that Christ died for ONLY SOME is in direct contradiction to a GREAT MANY Scriptures that specifically, directly, flat-out, verbatim, literally state the opposite, that Jesus died for all. Christ died for all. Faith is not given to all. That's what the Bible says. The Council of Orange affirms that - and Predestination - since there is no conflict in what the Bible teaches, only if you eliminate faith from justification. News: Justification requires TWO things (both from God): Christ's atoning work AND faith. Without BOTH, there is no justification (contrary to what some radical Calvinist argue - both those who invented universalism and those who insist that OSAS means one is justified even when they don't have faith).

Jesus said he gave his life for the sheep. That is what I believe.

Me, too. I just disagree with you that He misspoke and REALLY what He should have said (but erred) is: "I died ONLY for the sheep and NO OTHER." I believe what He actually said is not only what He meant but what is true.


When you find the verse that says, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for some" let us know. Until then, we have all those many, many Scriptures that clearly, boldly, literally, verbatim specificallly state - over and over and over again - that Jesus died 'FOR ALL' 'FOR EVERYONE' 'FOR THE WHOLE WORLD." I'd rather believe Jesus and Scripture.





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[MennoSota]

Free will is man made? That's news to me! So Adam didn't choose to disobey God's command to not eat! Gotcha!!

If free will is man made so is limited atonement! That phrase is found nowhere in the Scripture

We need to take the whole counsel of God not select verses we like that fit our theology.


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As is the phrase unlimited atonement not found in scripture.
I have pointed this out on multiple occasions that choices made in the confines of slavery do not mean the will is free to do whatever it wishes to do.
God ordains the rain to fall on the just and unjust. Neither can will it away. God chooses who he will adopt (save), no one can will it otherwise.
Balaam tried to curse the Israelites. God would not allow it. No matter how hard Balaam tried, God would not ordain such a thing. Instead God caused him to bless Israel. Haman tried to destroy all the Jews in Persia. God would not ordain it and stopped Haman's plans.
Humans will not choose God. We are in complete rebellion to God.
Romans 3:10-18 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Free-will is not biblical. In fact, it is a theory that seeks to usurp God and rule over Him. It demands that God be passive while humans act as they will. It is precisely rebellious, exactly as humans naturally act. It is a lie from the devil himself designed to question God's good and perfect will. It wraps itself in the serpents words, "has God not said..."
Trust the ordained will of God. It is far superior and far more righteous than your own corrupt nature. Let go of the humanistic teaching of free-will.

 

[MennoSota]

There is if the entire Dogma is "ONLY" ... and certainly if it is going to call out all the MANY, MANY Scriptures that specifically, flat-out, verbatim, literally STATE "all people" "everyone" "the whole world" and you are going to dogmatically insist all those verses are wrong.






You have the wrong thread. This discussion is not about Election, it's about the new, weird, horrible invention of a tiny few later-day radical Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY some.

As has been explained to you, the Council of Orange (from which we get the teaching of Predestination) states that predestination relates to those given faith, NOT to those for whom Christ died. To argue, as you do, that Christ died for ONLY SOME is in direct contradiction to a GREAT MANY Scriptures that specifically, directly, flat-out, verbatim, literally state the opposite, that Jesus died for all. Christ died for all. Faith is not given to all. That's what the Bible says. The Council of Orange affirms that - and Predestination - since there is no conflict in what the Bible teaches, only if you eliminate faith from justification. News: Justification requires TWO things (both from God): Christ's atoning work AND faith. Without BOTH, there is no justification (contrary to what some radical Calvinist argue - both those who invented universalism and those who insist that OSAS means one is justified even when they don't have faith).






Me, too. I just disagree with you that He misspoke and REALLY what He should have said (but erred) is: "I died ONLY for the sheep and NO OTHER." I believe what He actually said is not only what He meant but what is true.


When you find the verse that says, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY for some" let us know. Until then, we have all those many, many Scriptures that clearly, boldly, literally, verbatim specificallly state - over and over and over again - that Jesus died 'FOR ALL' 'FOR EVERYONE' 'FOR THE WHOLE WORLD." I'd rather believe Jesus and Scripture.





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There is no need.
God can choose to purchase whom He wills.
Would you purchase something and then cast it away after you gave your blood for it? I don't think so. Neither would the God of Creation.
If you never purchased something, would you be obligated to redeem it or could it legitimately be tossed away?
Josiah, this isn't difficult.
You have a massive contradiction to account for. I do not. That is the bottom line.

 

[Josiah]

There is no need.

There is when the entire new dogma wholly depends on it.... and when it direct, flat-out contradicts SO many Scriptures that specificly, verbatim state the exact opposite.

God can choose to purchase whom He wills.

Again, you have the wrong thread. This one isn't about Election.

Would...

Doctrine is not created or verified if it simply is a question someone asks. I may ask, "Why the Hebrews?" but that question would neither confirm or deny that God chose the Hebrews. You have a very, very strange way of doing theology....

How about just believing God? God has said - over and over and over and over again, specifically and directly and verbatim, that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "for the whole world." And He NEVER said, "Oops, that's wrong, actually I ONLY died for SOME." So, why not believe Him rather than the exact opposite of what He so often, so boldly, so clearly, so directly states? Even if it doesn't answer any personal questions you may have? Why this rubric of truth is the opposite of what God so clearly states?

You have a massive contradiction to account for.

No. I'm believing VERBATIM what God says. Nothing added, nothing deleted, nothing changed. What He said, over and over and over and over, in MANY Scriptures, clearly, specifically, directly, literally, verbatim: Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. No, it does NOT contradict your verse of "No, that's not true, actually Jesus died ONLY for SOME" because.... well..... as you've proven.... no such verse exists, so no, it doesn't contradict it.


You have a massive contradiction to account for. Because God says Jesus died for all. And you reject that, you hold that's not true, actually Jesus died for ONLY SOME. Your dogma contradicts God. And 2000 years of Christianity. And the Ecumenical Council of Orange. And every Calvinist personally known to me.




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[MennoSota]

There is when the entire new dogma wholly depends on it.... and when it direct, flat-out contradicts SO many Scriptures that specificly, verbatim state the exact opposite.






Again, you have the wrong thread. This one isn't about Election.






Doctrine is not created or verified if it simply is a question someone asks. I may ask, "Why the Hebrews?" but that question would neither confirm or deny that God chose the Hebrews. You have a very, very strange way of doing theology....

How about just believing God? God has said - over and over and over and over again, specifically and directly and verbatim, that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "for the whole world." And He NEVER said, "Oops, that's wrong, actually I ONLY died for SOME." So, why not believe Him rather than the exact opposite of what He so often, so boldly, so clearly, so directly states? Even if it doesn't answer any personal questions you may have? Why this rubric of truth is the opposite of what God so clearly states?







No. I'm believing VERBATIM what God says. Nothing added, nothing deleted, nothing changed. What He said, over and over and over and over, in MANY Scriptures, clearly, specifically, directly, literally, verbatim: Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. No, it does NOT contradict your verse of "No, that's not true, actually Jesus died ONLY for SOME" because.... well..... as you've proven.... no such verse exists, so no, it doesn't contradict it.


You have a massive contradiction to account for. Because God says Jesus died for all. And you reject that, you hold that's not true, actually Jesus died for ONLY SOME. Your dogma contradicts God. And 2000 years of Christianity. And the Ecumenical Council of Orange. And every Calvinist personally known to me.




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Choosing, Election, Predestination, they all are a part in who Christ died for. The fact that you want to compartmentalize scripture is telling.
Josiah, there are about two verses you can use, out of context, to make your argument for universal atonement. Meanwhile the vast number of verses, paragraphs and passages regarding God sovereignly choosing and predestining the elect makes your argument weak.
You still refuse to address the fact that no one would ever purchase something and then toss it away without taking it home. No one.
Neither does God. Those whom God has purchased He will NEVER forsake. But...your doctrine openly declares that God forsakes that which he has purchased with his blood. It directly contradicts God in His word. You need to own that teaching, Josiah. It's all yours.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Choosing, Election, Predestination, they all are a part in who Christ died for. The fact that you want to compartmentalize scripture is telling.
Josiah, there are about two verses you can use, out of context, to make your argument for universal atonement. Meanwhile the vast number of verses, paragraphs and passages regarding God sovereignly choosing and predestining the elect makes your argument weak.
You still refuse to address the fact that no one would ever purchase something and then toss it away without taking it home. No one.
Neither does God. Those whom God has purchased He will NEVER forsake. But...your doctrine openly declares that God forsakes that which he has purchased with his blood. It directly contradicts God in His word. You need to own that teaching, Josiah. It's all yours.

Just listen to how you talk. You don't even sound like you are speaking from the Bible.

 

[YourTruthGod]

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1 2 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

 

[YourTruthGod]

God calls everyone.


Matthew 23:27 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Isaiah 65:11-12. Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!



So you think God is calling people that don't answer but He knew they couldn't unless He regenerated them? That is just stupid.

Isaiah 65:11-12. Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen.

 

[YourTruthGod]

God draws ALL with lovingkindness.
See Jeremiah 31:3, John 12:32, and Hebrews 7:18-19.


God is around and near ALL OF US.
Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.


God wants ALL to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You are worried about calling Jesus a failure because some not being saved?

Jesus was tortured and died on a cross.

Do you think your prideful defense for your false doctrine can compare to Jesus' humbleness?

 

[YourTruthGod]

I am not an Arminian, but just read what this Calvinist said. This proves that Calvinism isn't from God.

We are all born Arminians. It is grace that turns us into Calvinists
-George Whitefield

Why is it that a person learns of Calvin’s doctrines AFTER they become Christians?

 

[MennoSota]

Just listen to how you talk. You don't even sound like you are speaking from the Bible.

I do listen. I also share vast amounts of scripture so you can actually read what it says. Thus...your claims are humorous to me. Perhaps you are illiterate?

 

[Josiah]

Meanwhile the vast number of verses, paragraphs and passages regarding God sovereignly choosing and predestining the elect

Friend, you have the wrong thread. The issue here is NOT Election (Scripture affirms that, the Council of Orange made that dogma). I fully agree with you regarding the election of the saved. Please try to stay on subject, please don't AGAIN play "the shell game" when you find you have nothing to stand on.


Scripture after Scripture, over and over and over again, flat out, directly, specifically, verbatim, STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. God said it (many times, as clearly and boldly as is possible) and 99.99% of us are okay with accepting it and believing God (it was 100% until a few later-day, radical Calvinists came along). Yes, there would be an issue to resolve IF the verse you claim actually existed, the one that states, "That's not true, actually Jesus died for ONLY SOME" but as you've proven, that verse doens't exist so there is no contradiction on our part, just for these very few radical Calvinists as they countradict God.


And there's no problem with election. As the Council of Orange teaches, Election applies to who is given faith. To argue that it applies to those for whom Christ died would be heresy, a direct and obvious contradiction of SO many clear Scriptures. Now, you avoid this by eliminated faith from justification but Scripture does not, Christianity does not, NO ONE is justified ONLY by the death of Jesus, also essential is faith. Since you want to eliminate faith from the issue, you see only one factor: whether Jesus died for them or not (most radical Calvinists realized that Jesus died for all, and continuing to ignore any role of faith in justification, concluded that all are saved, they invented universalism). Your eliminating the role of faith is at the heart of your problem and your need to disagree and contradict SO very many clear, literal, direct Scripture and to search in vain for one that teaches what you do (but no Calvinist, including you, can find it, not in nearly 400 years, and I think we all know why)




.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I do listen. I also share vast amounts of scripture so you can actually read what it says. Thus...your claims are humorous to me. Perhaps you are illiterate?

I am the one giving the scriptures and you are the one avoiding them.

 

[MennoSota]

Friend, you have the wrong thread. The issue here is NOT Election (Scripture affirms that, the Council of Orange made that dogma). I fully agree with you regarding the election of the saved. Please try to stay on subject, please don't AGAIN play "the shell game" when you find you have nothing to stand on.


Scripture after Scripture, over and over and over again, flat out, directly, specifically, verbatim, STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone, for the whole world. God said it (many times, as clearly and boldly as is possible) and 99.99% of us are okay with accepting it and believing God (it was 100% until a few later-day, radical Calvinists came along). Yes, there would be an issue to resolve IF the verse you claim actually existed, the one that states, "That's not true, actually Jesus died for ONLY SOME" but as you've proven, that verse doens't exist so there is no contradiction on our part, just for these very few radical Calvinists as they countradict God.


And there's no problem with election. As the Council of Orange teaches, Election applies to who is given faith. To argue that it applies to those for whom Christ died would be heresy, a direct and obvious contradiction of SO many clear Scriptures. Now, you avoid this by eliminated faith from justification but Scripture does not, Christianity does not, NO ONE is justified ONLY by the death of Jesus, also essential is faith. Since you want to eliminate faith from the issue, you see only one factor: whether Jesus died for them or not (most radical Calvinists realized that Jesus died for all, and continuing to ignore any role of faith in justification, concluded that all are saved, they invented universalism). Your eliminating the role of faith is at the heart of your problem and your need to disagree and contradict SO very many clear, literal, direct Scripture and to search in vain for one that teaches what you do (but no Calvinist, including you, can find it, not in nearly 400 years, and I think we all know why)




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I don't have the wrong thread. You just refuse to see scripture as a whole. This leads to you clinging to church tradition and dogma as your crutch.
Scripture has been shared. You reject it.