When truth matters.

[MoreCoffee]

Many professing christians claim to want the truth and say they will accept it when it is presented to them but so few are willing to search for it and accept it when it disappoints their expectations by contradicting their presuppositions. But when the truth matters to a person then it is right to expect that they will actively seek it and accept it when it is found. The Lord Jesus Christ put it this way,

Luke 13:18-30 ESV (18) He said therefore, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? (19) It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches." (20) And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? (21) It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened." (22) He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. (23) And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, (24) "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (25) When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' (26) Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' (27) But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' (28) In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. (29) And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. (30) And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."​

Don't be too lazy to search the truth out for yourself.

 

[Josiah]

ONE of my reasons for leaving the RC Denomination was that there, truth is irrelevant. All that matters is the unmitigated, unaccountable, all-powerful, self-claimed AUTHORITY of it itself to lord it over others as the Gentiles do; to just have all it itself alone officially says exempted from the entire issue of truth. See the ever-changing Catechism of the RC Denomination itself, # 87. Also see "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

ONE of my reasons for leaving the RC Denomination was that there, truth is irrelevant. All that matters is the unmitigated, unaccountable, all-powerful, self-claimed ...

Pax
- Josiah

I mean no harm in saying this but I've said it before and do so again in the hope that you will hear it. I do not care why you left. It is irrelevant to me. That you have left is a fact and that is all I need know (in fact I need not know it but you seem to make it a point to rehearse it often). The piled up adjectives in your often repeated accusations and complaints fail to impress; they seem eccentric in the English language and they convey no useful information and they are tiresome reading.

 

[psalms 91]

I find a personal first hand account and why thyey left to be very relevant. If you really want to win people back, which is what this pope seems to support then you need to understand why thye left in the first place

 

[MoreCoffee]

I find a personal first hand account and why thyey left to be very relevant. If you really want to win people back, which is what this pope seems to support then you need to understand why thye left in the first place

If he does not want to repent of his schism then what point is there in me wanting him to comes back? The change has to be voluntary.

 

[psalms 91]

If he does not want to repent of his schism then what point is there in me wanting him to comes back? The change has to be voluntary.

Not ure he needs to repent so much as have his issues addressed

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not ure he needs to repent so much as have his issues addressed

I'm not going to address his issues. He's smart enough to search the scriptures and the teaching of Christ in the Catholic Church for himself.

 

[Josiah]

I do not care why you left. It is irrelevant to me. That you have left is a fact and that is all I need know

I don't care if YOU care. And of course, you are not the exclusive person at this forum.

And yes, you are rather persistent at avoiding points - and trying to turn the conversation to personal matters and flames (to avoid replying to POINTS). Can't blame you, actually.

Suggestion: If you don't care about what is posted.... If you don't care about truth.... if you have nothing to contribute.... you might consider not responding. Just a thought. You may do as you desire/need, of course.



- Josiah

 

[tango]

Many professing christians claim to want the truth and say they will accept it when it is presented to them but so few are willing to search for it and accept it when it disappoints their expectations by contradicting their presuppositions. But when the truth matters to a person then it is right to expect that they will actively seek it and accept it when it is found. The Lord Jesus Christ put it this way,

Luke 13:18-30 ESV (18) He said therefore, "What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? (19) It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches." (20) And again he said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? (21) It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened." (22) He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. (23) And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, (24) "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (25) When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' (26) Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' (27) But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' (28) In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. (29) And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. (30) And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."​

Don't be too lazy to search the truth out for yourself.

Sadly it's easier to ask someone else what to think than to do the thinking oneself. And the current faceache generation that wants everything reduced to soundbites and one-liners to promote the thinking they were spoon-fed does little to help. What's really sad is when people spout a one-liner as if it were the beginning and ending of a discussion, only to find The Other Guy had an opposing one-liner and find all they have left is to resort to insults about being conservative or liberal or following too much of whatever talking head on TV is demonised today.

I'm increasingly thinking that anyone who would teach should not only welcome but actively encourage the testing of what they teach and actively welcome questions and, where appropriate, tuning or correction.

 

[tango]

If he does not want to repent of his schism then what point is there in me wanting him to comes back? The change has to be voluntary.

I suppose the first question would be whether leaving a particular denomination is a sin that needs to be repented at all. And even assuming it is, one might need to be shown why it was a sin in order that they might repent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I suppose the first question would be whether leaving a particular denomination is a sin that needs to be repented at all. And even assuming it is, one might need to be shown why it was a sin in order that they might repent.

The sin involved in schism is ...

Wounds to unity
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[SUP]269[/SUP] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[SUP]270[/SUP]—do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[SUP]271[/SUP]​

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[SUP]272[/SUP]
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[SUP]273[/SUP] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[SUP]274[/SUP] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[SUP]275[/SUP] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[SUP]276[/SUP]

269 UR 3 # 1.
270 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9, 1: PG 13, 732.
272 UR 3 # 1.
273 LG 8 # 2.
274 UR 3 # 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.​

It may not matter to some that unity is wounded by schism and if it does not matter in their estimation then that is as far as the matter can be taken with them. If someone does not believe that his/her actions are sinful then they will not be inclined to repent of their sin.

God have mercy on us all.

 

[psalms 91]

No wonder you view all protestants as not truly saved. Perhaps the bigger issue is how right your church is on the issues that people find problamatic. I find your church to be in error and of course you see errror in mine but I still think you are Christian whether you see me as one or not or worthy to take communion which by your church I am not

 

[MoreCoffee]

No wonder you view all protestants as not truly saved.

I've never said any such thing. The Church doesn't teach any such thing.

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."[SUP]277[/SUP] Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples:

"That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."[SUP]278[/SUP] The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.[SUP]279[/SUP]​

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

- a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;[SUP]280 [/SUP]
- conversion of heart as the faithful "try to live holier lives according to the Gospel";[SUP]281[/SUP] for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ's gift which causes divisions;
- prayer in common, because "change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;"'[SUP]282[/SUP]
-fraternal knowledge of each other;[SUP]283[/SUP]
- ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;[SUP]284[/SUP]
- dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;[SUP]285[/SUP]
- collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.[SUP]286[/SUP] "Human service" is the idiomatic phrase.​

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."[SUP]287[/SUP] But we must realize "that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."[SUP]288[/SUP]

277 UR 4 # 3.
278 ⇒ Jn 17:21; cf. ⇒ Heb 7:25.
279 Cf. UR 1.
280 Cf. UR 6.
281 UR 7 # 3.
282 UR 8 # 1.
283 Cf. UR 9.
284 Cf. UR 10.
285 Cf. UR 4; 9; 11.
286 Cf. UR 12.
287 UR 5.
288 UR 24 # 2.​

All who want to are called to come and drink the water of life. "The LORD says, "Come, everyone who is thirsty--- here is water! Come, you that have no money--- buy grain and eat! Come! Buy wine and milk--- it will cost you nothing!" (Isaiah 55:1)

Perhaps the bigger issue is how right your church is on the issues that people find problamatic. I find your church to be in error and of course you see errror in mine but I still think you are Christian whether you see me as one or not or worthy to take communion which by your church I am not

 

[popsthebuilder]

I've never said any such thing. The Church doesn't teach any such thing.

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."[SUP]277[/SUP] Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples:

"That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."[SUP]278[/SUP] The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.[SUP]279[/SUP]​

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

- a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;[SUP]280 [/SUP]
- conversion of heart as the faithful "try to live holier lives according to the Gospel";[SUP]281[/SUP] for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ's gift which causes divisions;
- prayer in common, because "change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;"'[SUP]282[/SUP]
-fraternal knowledge of each other;[SUP]283[/SUP]
- ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;[SUP]284[/SUP]
- dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;[SUP]285[/SUP]
- collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.[SUP]286[/SUP] "Human service" is the idiomatic phrase.​

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."[SUP]287[/SUP] But we must realize "that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."[SUP]288[/SUP]

277 UR 4 # 3.
278 ⇒ Jn 17:21; cf. ⇒ Heb 7:25.
279 Cf. UR 1.
280 Cf. UR 6.
281 UR 7 # 3.
282 UR 8 # 1.
283 Cf. UR 9.
284 Cf. UR 10.
285 Cf. UR 4; 9; 11.
286 Cf. UR 12.
287 UR 5.
288 UR 24 # 2.​

All who want to are called to come and drink the water of life. "The LORD says, "Come, everyone who is thirsty--- here is water! Come, you that have no money--- buy grain and eat! Come! Buy wine and milk--- it will cost you nothing!" (Isaiah 55:1)

Unity under God pertains to 12 schools of thought that all join us in the teachings of the Christ under God. All twelve are needed for unity, and to bring about The eighth month, or stage. The tree on both sides of the river that brings all together is man universally peaceable and under God in every way. It is strong like the tree by God. It branches across all true Faiths. It's roots are deep and wide. It's fruit is wholly good and sustenance for all, faithful under God and verifiable through all scriptures.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

The sin involved in schism is ...

Wounds to unity
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[SUP]269[/SUP] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[SUP]270[/SUP]—do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[SUP]271[/SUP]​

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[SUP]272[/SUP]
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[SUP]273[/SUP] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[SUP]274[/SUP] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[SUP]275[/SUP] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[SUP]276[/SUP]

269 UR 3 # 1.
270 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9, 1: PG 13, 732.
272 UR 3 # 1.
273 LG 8 # 2.
274 UR 3 # 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.​

It may not matter to some that unity is wounded by schism and if it does not matter in their estimation then that is as far as the matter can be taken with them. If someone does not believe that his/her actions are sinful then they will not be inclined to repent of their sin.

God have mercy on us all.

A unity of NONE. The RC Denomination is in disunity with ALL. Even if we limit the comparison to those few things the RC Denomination itself currently insists are matters of highest importance possible, greatest certainty possible (de fide dogma), even then: a unity of NONE, a disunity with ALL.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A unity of NONE. The RC Denomination is in disunity with ALL. Even if we limit the comparison to those few things the RC Denomination itself currently insists are matters of highest importance possible, greatest certainty possible (de fide dogma), even then: a unity of NONE, a disunity with ALL.

The above quote makes demonstrably incorrect statements; the Catholic church is identifiably a single Church as the above quote's author repeatedly says in his multi-adjective descriptions of it as "singular, unique, one, only" and so forth. As for the Catholic Church being disunited from "all", that's not true. The Catholic Church is fully united with all the faithful within her communion and and imperfectly united with all who confess the Nicene Creedal faith as their own faith. The 'disunity' appears to be entirely on the side of those who - for whatever reasons - refuse fellowship with the Catholic Church. From a Catholic perspective we're here waiting with open doors; you can join us any time you like.

 

[tango]

The sin involved in schism is ...

Wounds to unity
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[SUP]269[/SUP] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[SUP]270[/SUP]—do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[SUP]271[/SUP]​

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[SUP]272[/SUP]
819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[SUP]273[/SUP] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[SUP]274[/SUP] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[SUP]275[/SUP] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[SUP]276[/SUP]

269 UR 3 # 1.
270 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9, 1: PG 13, 732.
272 UR 3 # 1.
273 LG 8 # 2.
274 UR 3 # 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.​

It may not matter to some that unity is wounded by schism and if it does not matter in their estimation then that is as far as the matter can be taken with them. If someone does not believe that his/her actions are sinful then they will not be inclined to repent of their sin.

God have mercy on us all.

I have no idea what document you've referenced there. Is it some Catholic internal doctrine, or does it come directly from Scripture?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have no idea what document you've referenced there. Is it some Catholic internal doctrine, or does it come directly from Scripture?

It's the Catechism of the Catholic Church; the bulk of the teaching is directly from scripture some is from scripture and holy tradition.

 

[tango]

It's the Catechism of the Catholic Church; the bulk of the teaching is directly from scripture some is from scripture and holy tradition.

Where in Scripture does it say it's a sin to leave one denomination and go to another?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where in Scripture does it say it's a sin to leave one denomination and go to another?

The principle is explained in saint Paul's letters. And in Hebrews. Chapter ten speaks of avoiding the neglect of assembling together in fellowship. Other letters urge Christians to be united in one faith with one baptism and so forth. How folk in separated and independent groups deal with such passages I am not sure but I feel confident that some sort of explanation exists that satisfies their situation as independent and/or separated from the unity mentioned in holy scripture.