Jesus Christ, died for all

[ImaginaryDay2]

I am very sure that ImaginaryDay2 did not say what you've misrepresented him as saying.

And all the people said "Amen"!

 

[MennoSota]

I am very sure that ImaginaryDay2 did not say what you've misrepresented him as saying.

And all the people said "Amen"!

No one actually knows what ID2 actually said. Intentional obfuscation?

 

[Josiah]

Let’s say tat your 5 year old says “If you love me, then you will buy me a hippopotamus for Christmas.” If you then do not buy them a hippopotamus for Christmas, does that prove that your child was bad and did not deserve a hippopotamus or that you do not love your child?

Neither. It proves that you were never under any obligation to buy a hippopotamus. Whether the child was good or bad does not matter. Whether you love them or do not love them does not matter. The parent is not controlled by the whims of the child.

... and neither is GOD.

[Rom 9:14-18 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

“God does as He pleases, and He does it right well.” - Corrie ten Boom

God is not MANDATED, REQUIRED, OBLIGATED to be merciful..... no one ORDERED God to die for all people..... but that reality doesn't prove that therefore He did not.

So far... in over 400 years.... no Calvinist has been able to find a single verse anywhere in the Bible that states that Jesus died for ONLY some (the word "ONLY" being the dogma in dispute). And of course, we do have the following:

Romans 5: 1-2

John 3:16

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24



Some extreme Calvinists seem quite obsessed with the question of why some are saved and not others. Asking questions is fine Bt appointing self to answer them and designating the answer to self to be authoritative - even it is flat out contradicts what God has said, well.... But here is the historic "answer" - not all have faith. Election has always been understood as effecting faith - who is given faith. But since these same few radical Calvinists typically delete faith, they move the object to Christ and the Cross.


As for Pharaoh (a favorite topic for Calvinists).... note that God approached him over and over and over.... obviously giving him opportunity..... but his persistent rejection EVENTUALLY lead to the hardening of his heart. God would have never sent Moses to him, never did the plagues... if He simply had predestined Pharaoh. But, of course, the context here is not justification and so in this context, is irrelevant.




- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

God is not MANDATED, REQUIRED, OBLIGATED to be merciful..... no one ORDERED God to die for all people..... but that reality doesn't prove that therefore He did not.

So far... in over 400 years.... no Calvinist has been able to find a single verse anywhere in the Bible that states that Jesus died for ONLY some (the word "ONLY" being the dogma in dispute). And of course, we do have the following:

Romans 5: 1-2

John 3:16

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24



Some extreme Calvinists seem quite obsessed with the question of why some are saved and not others. Asking questions is fine Bt appointing self to answer them and designating the answer to self to be authoritative - even it is flat out contradicts what God has said, well.... But here is the historic "answer" - not all have faith. Election has always been understood as effecting faith - who is given faith. But since these same few radical Calvinists typically delete faith, they move the object to Christ and the Cross.


As for Pharaoh (a favorite topic for Calvinists).... note that God approached him over and over and over.... obviously giving him opportunity..... but his persistent rejection EVENTUALLY lead to the hardening of his heart. God would have never sent Moses to him, never did the plagues... if He simply had predestined Pharaoh. But, of course, the context here is not justification and so in this context, is irrelevant.




- Josiah




.

No one states what you claim they state. Josiah, you are incredibly confused and thus make foolish claims about Reformed theology based upon your ignorance.
You wrote:
God is not MANDATED, REQUIRED, OBLIGATED to be merciful..... no one ORDERED God to die for all people..... but that reality doesn't prove that therefore He did not.

I state this:
God is not MANDATED, REQUIRED, OBLIGATED to be merciful or gracious..... no one ORDERED God to die for any people..... but that reality doesn't prove that therefore He did not.

God chose to make people perfect and holy by atoning for their sins.
Josiah, here's my question:
You claim that ALL the world is atoned by Jesus sacrificial death. Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, here's my question:
You claim that ALL the world is atoned by Jesus sacrificial death. Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

1. Read John 3:16.


2. You like to ask questions, perhaps thinking that questions substantiate ANYTHING and/or that questions are apologetics. Radical Calvinisim and Arminianism both are based on self asking self questions and then self insisting that the answer self gives to the question self asks must be right (because self is SO smart) and that God must agree with self in order to be as smart as self. Enormous egoism.... extreme individualism....


3. No, biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification. By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you create a wrong premise. You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right. Yes, Christ died for all.... yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.).... yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit. Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual.


4. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


5. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


6. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinists to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.





.

 

[MennoSota]

1. Read John 3:16.

2. You like to ask questions, perhaps thinking that questions substantiate ANYTHING and/or that questions are apologetics. Radical Calvinisim and Arminianism both are based on self asking self questions and then self insisting that the answer self gives to the question self asks must be right (because self is SO smart) and that God must agree with self in order to be as smart as self.

3. No, biblical Christianity does not delete faith from justification. By eliminating the doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you create a wrong premise. You insist that by embracing faith, we "contradict" you - and I guess you're right. Yes, Christ died for all.... yes, the divine gift of faith apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies in what Christ did and thus benefits from it (Romans 5:1-2, etc. etc.).... yes, not all have faith and thus not all benefit. Faith is the means whereby the gift is applied to the individual.

4. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).




.

You never answered my question. You avoid and go on a tangent.
Please be kind and answer my question.

Josiah, here's my question:

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

 

[Josiah]

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

1. Questions prove nothing. Questions aren't apologetics. If the "answer" you yourself give to the question you yourself ask contradicts Scripture then it's wrong.


2. Whether I'M justified does not depend SOLELY on whether Christ died for me. You are simply repudiating the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You are simply deleting faith, rendering it irrelevant. NO ONE benefits form ANYTHING Christ actually did if there is no faith. NO ONE. Faith is essential, it is INSEPARABLE. I will not join you in denying Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.... I will not join you in a faithless soteriology (it lead your kind into universalism, as you know).


3. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


4. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


5. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.





.

 

[MennoSota]

1. Questions prove nothing. Questions aren't apologetics. If the "answer" you yourself give to the question you yourself ask contradicts Scripture then it's wrong.


2. Whether I'M justified does not depend SOLELY on whether Christ died for me. You are simply repudiating the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You are simply deleting faith, rendering it irrelevant. NO ONE benefits form ANYTHING Christ actually did if there is no faith. NO ONE. Faith is essential, it is INSEPARABLE. I will not join you in denying Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.... I will not join you in a faithless soteriology (it lead your kind into universalism, as you know).


3. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


4. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


5. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.





.

Again...you didn't answer the question. If you're not going to answer just tell us you refuse.

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

 

[Andrew]

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

Questions like this is what caused me to rethink... there is just no escaping it, no way around it.
If Christ atoned for all then all are atoned for.

 

[Josiah]

Questions like this is what caused me to rethink... there is just no escaping it, no way around it.
If Christ atoned for all then all are atoned for.

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


1. ... well.... it doesn't apply to them if there is no faith. What these handful of radical Calvinists do is just eliminate faith from justification. It's just PART of the way they repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. They eliminate faith from the issue of soteriology. Yes, if faith is irrelevant, moot, non-existent, THEN they'd have a "logical" point - all for whom Christ died would be saved. But of course, their rejection of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and their deleting of faith simply creates a wrong senario. Yes, given their wrong and unbiblical assumption, they have a logical point... but it's a wrong assumption (and a very unprotestant one).

In classic theology, we speak of Christ's OBJECTIVE justification - what exists, what is real because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, and SUBJECTIVE justification, what applies to and benefits an individual because of Sola Fide. The extreme Calvinist - by eliminating Sola Fide and deleting faith, simply discards subjective justification. BTW, this is EXACTLY the reason why much of radical Calvinism ended up in Universalism. As my formerly Calvinist wife pointed out to me, if you visit New England you see hundreds of Universalist Churches (nearly every New England village has one) - and they ALL were founded as radical Calvinists churches (including the one in Plymouth, MASS founded by the Pilgrims). The identical error occurs in Universalism and TULIP Calvinism - the elimination of faith and all being ONLY if Christ died for them or not.


2. Read post 67. Read the verses. Note how they state that Christ died for all... note how they teach that what Christ did is apprehended by faith. They don't delete the "Sola Fide" part of justification, they don't regard faith as moot. And note.... NO CALVINIST in over 400 years has yet found a verse that says, "Christ died ONLY for the few" or "If Christ died for you then you are saved irregardless of faith."


3. Besides obviously being illogical and unbiblical, besides leading to universalism, there is a TERROR here (as in most of TULIP). For you and me, our faith is effectual because of the OBJECT of that faith, which is in Christ as MY Savior, that Christ died for ME, that in Christ forgiveness and mercy are available to me. ALL faith that has Christ as the OBJECT is effectual because Christ died for ALL. In radical Calvinism, the object of faith is irrelevant because there's no way to know if Jesus is MY Savior (He's probably not), so it doesn't matter if my faith looks to Him or not. In radical Calvinism, you have to HOPE that GOD gave you that faith (and how can you KNOW that?), the OBJECT of the faith is irrelevant (there's no way to know if Jesus is YOUR Savior, only to know odds are, He's not).... all depends on whether your faith came from GOD or not (which of course, is impossible to know). Thus, the Calvinist lives in uncertainty and terror. You and I can KNOW our faith means we benefit from what our Savior did because He is OUR Savior, He died for ALL - and thus also me.




.

 

[Josiah]

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

Again, if there is no faith, that one was never justified. I won't join you in repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and in deleting faith from soteriology. It is NOT a matter ONLY of whether Christ died for someone.... for the individual to benefit, for that to be applied to the individual, there must be faith.

Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


Read the following. Note the words. Delete none. Substitute none. Note how they state Christ died for ALL, note how they indicate that one is not justified SOLELY by Christ dying for them but ALSO because of faith.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


Now, see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word. And see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist in 400+ years to find the verse that states, "If Christ died for you, then YOU personally are justified regardless of whether there is faith."

The classic, biblical position is that Christ died for all. It is why we reject the TULIP position that Christ did NOT die for all but only for a few. You keep trying to change the topic, insist on this really weird idea that if you ask a question that proves your position true, your evasion of the words God placed in His Scripture and your unwillingness/inability to quote even one Scripture that actually states/confirms your positions.



.

 

[MennoSota]

Again, if there is no faith, that one was never justified. I won't join you in repudiating Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and in deleting faith from soteriology. It is NOT a matter ONLY of whether Christ died for someone.... for the individual to benefit, for that to be applied to the individual, there must be faith.

Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


Read the following. Note the words. Delete none. Substitute none. Note how they state Christ died for ALL, note how they indicate that one is not justified SOLELY by Christ dying for them but ALSO because of faith.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


Now, see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word. And see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist in 400+ years to find the verse that states, "If Christ died for you, then YOU personally are justified regardless of whether there is faith."

The classic, biblical position is that Christ died for all. It is why we reject the TULIP position that Christ did NOT die for all but only for a few. You keep trying to change the topic, insist on this really weird idea that if you ask a question that proves your position true, your evasion of the words God placed in His Scripture and your unwillingness/inability to quote even one Scripture that actually states/confirms your positions.



.

I didn't ask about justification. Please answer the question or tell us you refuse to answer.

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

 

[Josiah]

Does God condemn people for whom He has made perfect by atonement?

Again, if there is no faith, that one was never justified. I won't join you in repudiating the biblical and Protestant doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (one, inseparable truth) and in deleting faith from soteriology.


It is NOT a matter ONLY of whether Christ died for someone.... for the individual to benefit, for that to be applied to the individual, there must be faith. If BOB has no faith, BOB is not justified... that does NOT mandate that therefore Christ never died for Bob, it means that Bob doesn't benefit. Your question assumes several unbiblical, wrong and very unprotestant things.


Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite.

I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then something was never given. Your premise is illogical and silly (and demands you to repudiate the Protestant doctrine of justification). Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


Read the following. Note the words. Delete none. Substitute none. Note how they state Christ died for ALL, note how they indicate that one is not justified SOLELY by Christ dying for them but ALSO because of faith.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


Now, see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word. And see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist in 400+ years to find the verse that states, "If Christ died for you, then YOU personally are justified regardless of whether there is faith."

The classic, biblical position is that Christ died for all. It is why we reject the TULIP position that Christ did NOT die for all but only for a few. You keep trying to change the topic, insist on this really weird idea that if you ask a question that proves your position true, your evasion of the words God placed in His Scripture and your unwillingness/inability to quote even one Scripture that actually states/confirms your positions.


I've given you some of the verses that teach that Jesus died for all... you've given NONE that states "Jesus died for ONLY a few." I have given Scriptures that state justification not ONLY requires Christ's atoning death but ALSO the divine gift of personal faith but you have given NONE that state that if Christ died for you, you are saved regardless of faith.






.


.

 

[atpollard]

1. Questions prove nothing. Questions aren't apologetics. If the "answer" you yourself give to the question you yourself ask contradicts Scripture then it's wrong.


2. Whether I'M justified does not depend SOLELY on whether Christ died for me. You are simply repudiating the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You are simply deleting faith, rendering it irrelevant. NO ONE benefits form ANYTHING Christ actually did if there is no faith. NO ONE. Faith is essential, it is INSEPARABLE. I will not join you in denying Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.... I will not join you in a faithless soteriology (it lead your kind into universalism, as you know).


3. Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite. I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then it was never given. Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


4. Read the following.

John 3:14-16

5. See if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word.
.

Let's try this "apologetics" thing ... starting at your first 'proof text' verses:

[Jhn 3:14-18 NIV] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

v.14 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness"
How did Moses lift up the snake in the wilderness? [a rhetorical question] It is a reference to an event recorded in the book of Numbers:
[Num 21:4-8 NIV] 4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!" 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

Moses placed a Bronze Serpent on a pole in order that anyone who look upon it would be saved from the punishment of God's judgement. The serpent on the pole was not for all people, it was for God's chosen nation (Israel). It was not even for the benefit of all of Israel, it was only of benefit to those who were first bitten, and then looked upon it. It was AVAILABLE to all people, but it was not created to effect the forgiveness of all people.

v.14 "so the Son of Man must be lifted up"
As was God's gift of forgiveness through the serpent of Moses, so is God's greater gift of forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The image of the serpent is repeated in scripture as a symbol for sin (Gen 3:1-5 and Rev 12:9). Bronze, in the temple, is a metal associated with God's Judgement. Thus Moses' Bronze Serpent would be symbolic of Sin judged by God. However, even though all of Israel had sinned, the punishment of God (being bitten by a poison snake) and the deliverance from that punishment (looking to the sin judged on a pole for forgiveness) fell on some, not all. So the Son of Man WAS lifted up! In Christ, God judged sin and hung it from a cross. Jesus was lifted as Moses serpent, available to all, but not created to benefit all. Only those bitten by a poison snake looked to the Bronze Serpent, and only those drawn by the Father (John 6:44) come to the Son. Only those that looked to the bronze serpent received the blessing of God's forgiveness and only those that the Father gives "ears to hear" will believe and receive the blessing of Jesus on the Cross. The serpent on the cross was available to all, but created for the benefit of the chosen, just as Jesus death on the Cross is available to all but was created for the benefit of the chosen.

I offer in support of the fact that there is a "chosen", the following:

[Rom 8:28-33 NIV] 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I will pause at John 3:14 to offer you a chance to respond with apologetic exegesis before continuing.
Show me where I have misunderstood scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


1. ... well.... it doesn't apply to them if there is no faith. What these handful of radical Calvinists do is just eliminate faith from justification. It's just PART of the way they repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. They eliminate faith from the issue of soteriology. Yes, if faith is irrelevant, moot, non-existent, THEN they'd have a "logical" point - all for whom Christ died would be saved. But of course, their rejection of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and their deleting of faith simply creates a wrong senario. Yes, given their wrong and unbiblical assumption, they have a logical point... but it's a wrong assumption (and a very unprotestant one).

In classic theology, we speak of Christ's OBJECTIVE justification - what exists, what is real because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, and SUBJECTIVE justification, what applies to and benefits an individual because of Sola Fide. The extreme Calvinist - by eliminating Sola Fide and deleting faith, simply discards subjective justification. BTW, this is EXACTLY the reason why much of radical Calvinism ended up in Universalism. As my formerly Calvinist wife pointed out to me, if you visit New England you see hundreds of Universalist Churches (nearly every New England village has one) - and they ALL were founded as radical Calvinists churches (including the one in Plymouth, MASS founded by the Pilgrims). The identical error occurs in Universalism and TULIP Calvinism - the elimination of faith and all being ONLY if Christ died for them or not.


2. Read post 67. Read the verses. Note how they state that Christ died for all... note how they teach that what Christ did is apprehended by faith. They don't delete the "Sola Fide" part of justification, they don't regard faith as moot. And note.... NO CALVINIST in over 400 years has yet found a verse that says, "Christ died ONLY for the few" or "If Christ died for you then you are saved irregardless of faith."


3. Besides obviously being illogical and unbiblical, besides leading to universalism, there is a TERROR here (as in most of TULIP). For you and me, our faith is effectual because of the OBJECT of that faith, which is in Christ as MY Savior, that Christ died for ME, that in Christ forgiveness and mercy are available to me. ALL faith that has Christ as the OBJECT is effectual because Christ died for ALL. In radical Calvinism, the object of faith is irrelevant because there's no way to know if Jesus is MY Savior (He's probably not), so it doesn't matter if my faith looks to Him or not. In radical Calvinism, you have to HOPE that GOD gave you that faith (and how can you KNOW that?), the OBJECT of the faith is irrelevant (there's no way to know if Jesus is YOUR Savior, only to know odds are, He's not).... all depends on whether your faith came from GOD or not (which of course, is impossible to know). Thus, the Calvinist lives in uncertainty and terror. You and I can KNOW our faith means we benefit from what our Savior did because He is OUR Savior, He died for ALL - and thus also me.




.

You are confusing justification with atonement.
Did God atone us by faith? No.
God atoned us by choice. God makes those for whom He has atoned entirely perfect and holy. Not one spot or blemish of sin is left unpaid for.
So...
Does God condemn those for whom He has atoned their sins?

 

[Josiah]

Let's try this "apologetics" thing ... starting at your first 'proof text' verses:

[Jhn 3:14-18 NIV] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

v.14 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness"
How did Moses lift up the snake in the wilderness? [a rhetorical question] It is a reference to an event recorded in the book of Numbers:
[Num 21:4-8 NIV] 4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!" 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

Moses placed a Bronze Serpent on a pole in order that anyone who look upon it would be saved from the punishment of God's judgement. The serpent on the pole was not for all people, it was for God's chosen nation (Israel). It was not even for the benefit of all of Israel, it was only of benefit to those who were first bitten, and then looked upon it. It was AVAILABLE to all people, but it was not created to effect the forgiveness of all people.

v.14 "so the Son of Man must be lifted up"
As was God's gift of forgiveness through the serpent of Moses, so is God's greater gift of forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The image of the serpent is repeated in scripture as a symbol for sin (Gen 3:1-5 and Rev 12:9). Bronze, in the temple, is a metal associated with God's Judgement. Thus Moses' Bronze Serpent would be symbolic of Sin judged by God. However, even though all of Israel had sinned, the punishment of God (being bitten by a poison snake) and the deliverance from that punishment (looking to the sin judged on a pole for forgiveness) fell on some, not all. So the Son of Man WAS lifted up! In Christ, God judged sin and hung it from a cross. Jesus was lifted as Moses serpent, available to all, but not created to benefit all. Only those bitten by a poison snake looked to the Bronze Serpent, and only those drawn by the Father (John 6:44) come to the Son. Only those that looked to the bronze serpent received the blessing of God's forgiveness and only those that the Father gives "ears to hear" will believe and receive the blessing of Jesus on the Cross. The serpent on the cross was available to all, but created for the benefit of the chosen, just as Jesus death on the Cross is available to all but was created for the benefit of the chosen.

I offer in support of the fact that there is a "chosen", the following:

[Rom 8:28-33 NIV] 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I will pause at John 3:14 to offer you a chance to respond with apologetic exegesis before continuing.
Show me where I have misunderstood scripture.

1. The TULIP position is entirely missing from this passage. Nowhere does it say "For God so loved just a FEW people (not most) that He gave His only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not parish as long as Jesus died for them, which He probably did not."


2. I'll agree, the pole benefited only those there, but that's not the point of the text, is it? The point is NOT that some Japanese in 34,000 BC didn't benefit from this, is it? And God provided salvation from that for "EVERYONE" (the literal word) impacted by it. And "everyone" who looked to it (faith) benefited. What is entirely, wholly missing here is "And MOST did not benefit from this because regardless of whether they did as God commanded, it simply wasn't for most of them." What is missing in Numbers 21:9 is "And many who looked to the bronze serpent died anyway because the bronze serpent wasn't for everyone, indeed, not for most." What is missing is, "And all were saved whether they looked to the bronze serpent or not." Again, ALL those present had the problem.... salvation was offered to ALL those present.... they benefited from such as they had faith in it, as each looked to what was for "everyone" with that problem.


3. Romans 8:28-33. I agree with every word. But there's nothing there about Christ dying for ONLY a few (and thus odds are not you or me).... and while faith isn't mentioned there, it is elsewhere in this chapter and in this context. I disagree with the elimination of the Sola Fide aspect of justification. Yes, the pole was raised for ALL with this punishment/problem.... but how did they benefit? By faith. Now, the text doesn't say that any did not look (it simply doesn't record if the faith was universal or not) but it makes it clear the "solution" was for "everyone" and that each benefited as they embraced/apprehended/relied/trusted upon it by faith. Again, this doesn't address Japanese living in 34,000 BC but then they didn't have the problem, did they? ALL to whom God sent the snakes, for everyone of them, the "solution" was given. How did each benefit, how did the individuals come to live? By faith.



- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

Again, if there is no faith, that one was never justified. I won't join you in repudiating the biblical and Protestant doctrine of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (one, inseparable truth) and in deleting faith from soteriology.


It is NOT a matter ONLY of whether Christ died for someone.... for the individual to benefit, for that to be applied to the individual, there must be faith. If BOB has no faith, BOB is not justified... that does NOT mandate that therefore Christ never died for Bob, it means that Bob doesn't benefit. Your question assumes several unbiblical, wrong and very unprotestant things.


Yes, many of us have given you a long, long, long list of Scriptures that teach this.... we've referred you to the Council of Orange.... we've used examples and illustrations.... but you insist on rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable united doctrine, you insist on eliminating faith from justification, you insist on parroting the modern tradition of one denomination and just ignoring all the Scriptures that teach the opposite.

I'll try again: Your premise is silly and illogical, you ASSUME that is something doesn't benefit an individual, then something was never given. Your premise is illogical and silly (and demands you to repudiate the Protestant doctrine of justification). Let's say I GIVE you a Starbucks gift card. It's legit.... I paid for it.... it's real. It's not a fake, it's not a fraud, it's not a trick of a cruel and sick giver, it's not sick joke. Now, let's say you never use it. You don't rely on it. Do you benefit from it? No. Does that prove ergo it's a fraud, a fake, a sick and cruel joke? Does it prove I never paid for it but stole it? No. It only means you never used it and thus never benefited from it. Your whole premise is silly. And illogical. It's possible only because you eliminate faith. To keep my illustration, it would be mandated that if I gave you a card, at that moment COFFEE was poured from heaven and down your gullet and that there is no factor of using the card, trusting/relying/apprehending it. You just eliminate faith and thus destroy the Protestant position of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Friend, historic orthodox Christianity holds that predestination/election impacts who receives the gift of faith - and thus who benefits from Christ's work. Extreme Calvinists, by eliminating faith in justification. must instead put it on Christ. This is flately unbiblical (and terrible!!!).


Read the following. Note the words. Delete none. Substitute none. Note how they state Christ died for ALL, note how they indicate that one is not justified SOLELY by Christ dying for them but ALSO because of faith.

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

John 1:9

Acts 2:21

Romans 5: 1-2

1 John 2:2

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:3-4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9

1 John 4:4:14

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 3:28

Romans 9:30

Galatians 2:16

Philippians 3:9

Romans 3:22

Romans 3:26

Galatians 3:22

Galatians 3:24


Now, see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist to find a verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few.... "ONLY" being the dogma and thus the essential word. And see if you can be the first TULIP Calvinist in 400+ years to find the verse that states, "If Christ died for you, then YOU personally are justified regardless of whether there is faith."

The classic, biblical position is that Christ died for all. It is why we reject the TULIP position that Christ did NOT die for all but only for a few. You keep trying to change the topic, insist on this really weird idea that if you ask a question that proves your position true, your evasion of the words God placed in His Scripture and your unwillingness/inability to quote even one Scripture that actually states/confirms your positions.


I've given you some of the verses that teach that Jesus died for all... you've given NONE that states "Jesus died for ONLY a few." I have given Scriptures that state justification not ONLY requires Christ's atoning death but ALSO the divine gift of personal faith but you have given NONE that state that if Christ died for you, you are saved regardless of faith.






.


.

We are not discussing justification. We are discussing atonement. Is this hard for you to understand?

Does God condemn those whom He has made holy and perfect by Jesus sacrificial atonement?

This is a legal question, Josiah.

Believing, by faith, that you are justified is an entirely different issue.
When a judge reviews a case and sees that the contract has been paid in full, does the judge nullify the contract simply because the defendant doesn't have the faith to believe the contract has been paid in full...fully met?

So... I ask again:
Does God condemn those whom He has made holy and perfect by Jesus sacrificial atonement?

 

[Andrew]

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]


1. ... well.... it doesn't apply to them if there is no faith. What these handful of radical Calvinists do is just eliminate faith from justification. It's just PART of the way they repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. They eliminate faith from the issue of soteriology. Yes, if faith is irrelevant, moot, non-existent, THEN they'd have a "logical" point - all for whom Christ died would be saved. But of course, their rejection of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and their deleting of faith simply creates a wrong senario. Yes, given their wrong and unbiblical assumption, they have a logical point... but it's a wrong assumption (and a very unprotestant one).

In classic theology, we speak of Christ's OBJECTIVE justification - what exists, what is real because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, and SUBJECTIVE justification, what applies to and benefits an individual because of Sola Fide. The extreme Calvinist - by eliminating Sola Fide and deleting faith, simply discards subjective justification. BTW, this is EXACTLY the reason why much of radical Calvinism ended up in Universalism. As my formerly Calvinist wife pointed out to me, if you visit New England you see hundreds of Universalist Churches (nearly every New England village has one) - and they ALL were founded as radical Calvinists churches (including the one in Plymouth, MASS founded by the Pilgrims). The identical error occurs in Universalism and TULIP Calvinism - the elimination of faith and all being ONLY if Christ died for them or not.


2. Read post 67. Read the verses. Note how they state that Christ died for all... note how they teach that what Christ did is apprehended by faith. They don't delete the "Sola Fide" part of justification, they don't regard faith as moot. And note.... NO CALVINIST in over 400 years has yet found a verse that says, "Christ died ONLY for the few" or "If Christ died for you then you are saved irregardless of faith."


3. Besides obviously being illogical and unbiblical, besides leading to universalism, there is a TERROR here (as in most of TULIP). For you and me, our faith is effectual because of the OBJECT of that faith, which is in Christ as MY Savior, that Christ died for ME, that in Christ forgiveness and mercy are available to me. ALL faith that has Christ as the OBJECT is effectual because Christ died for ALL. In radical Calvinism, the object of faith is irrelevant because there's no way to know if Jesus is MY Savior (He's probably not), so it doesn't matter if my faith looks to Him or not. In radical Calvinism, you have to HOPE that GOD gave you that faith (and how can you KNOW that?), the OBJECT of the faith is irrelevant (there's no way to know if Jesus is YOUR Savior, only to know odds are, He's not).... all depends on whether your faith came from GOD or not (which of course, is impossible to know). Thus, the Calvinist lives in uncertainty and terror. You and I can KNOW our faith means we benefit from what our Savior did because He is OUR Savior, He died for ALL - and thus also me.




.

Christ died to redeem and raise up the faithful. If Christ died so to give faith to the world it would be the same as redeeming the whole world but it just is not the case, not all will inherit the kingdom, not all will be given faith.
Romans 9 speaks on the issue of what one can term as "double predestination", that and Ephesians 1 both emphasizes that God is sovereign and has dominion over us and it's natural for us to question "why me?", he has issued us faith... If you Love God and you KNOW that you Love God then you must respect that God first Loved you, all those who come to know and Love God should never doubt that God first loved them. Im sorry but if you have God in your heart and you reflect on him 24/7 then you have nothing to worry about as far as questioning if you are his, because you are his, you are hearers and doers but not because you chose to have Faith but that Faith is God given and he blesses his people. Christ blood is shed for many (both Jew and Gentile) but not all peoples of the world.

 

[Josiah]

1. ... well.... it doesn't apply to them if there is no faith. What these handful of radical Calvinists do is just eliminate faith from justification. It's just PART of the way they repudiate Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. They eliminate faith from the issue of soteriology. Yes, if faith is irrelevant, moot, non-existent, THEN they'd have a "logical" point - all for whom Christ died would be saved. But of course, their rejection of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide and their deleting of faith simply creates a wrong senario. Yes, given their wrong and unbiblical assumption, they have a logical point... but it's a wrong assumption (and a very unprotestant one).

In classic theology, we speak of Christ's OBJECTIVE justification - what exists, what is real because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, and SUBJECTIVE justification, what applies to and benefits an individual because of Sola Fide. The extreme Calvinist - by eliminating Sola Fide and deleting faith, simply discards subjective justification. BTW, this is EXACTLY the reason why much of radical Calvinism ended up in Universalism. As my formerly Calvinist wife pointed out to me, if you visit New England you see hundreds of Universalist Churches (nearly every New England village has one) - and they ALL were founded as radical Calvinists churches (including the one in Plymouth, MASS founded by the Pilgrims). The identical error occurs in Universalism and TULIP Calvinism - the elimination of faith and all being ONLY if Christ died for them or not.


2. Read post 67. Read the verses. Note how they state that Christ died for all... note how they teach that what Christ did is apprehended by faith. They don't delete the "Sola Fide" part of justification, they don't regard faith as moot. And note.... NO CALVINIST in over 400 years has yet found a verse that says, "Christ died ONLY for the few" or "If Christ died for you then you are saved irregardless of faith."


3. Besides obviously being illogical and unbiblical, besides leading to universalism, there is a TERROR here (as in most of TULIP). For you and me, our faith is effectual because of the OBJECT of that faith, which is in Christ as MY Savior, that Christ died for ME, that in Christ forgiveness and mercy are available to me. ALL faith that has Christ as the OBJECT is effectual because Christ died for ALL. In radical Calvinism, the object of faith is irrelevant because there's no way to know if Jesus is MY Savior (He's probably not), so it doesn't matter if my faith looks to Him or not. In radical Calvinism, you have to HOPE that GOD gave you that faith (and how can you KNOW that?), the OBJECT of the faith is irrelevant (there's no way to know if Jesus is YOUR Savior, only to know odds are, He's not).... all depends on whether your faith came from GOD or not (which of course, is impossible to know). Thus, the Calvinist lives in uncertainty and terror. You and I can KNOW our faith means we benefit from what our Savior did because He is OUR Savior, He died for ALL - and thus also me.


.

Christ died to redeem and raise up the faithful.

No one here debates that. But where does it say for 'ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST the faithful?" That's the debate.

If Christ died so to give faith to the world it would be the same as redeeming the whole world but it just is not the case, not all will inherit the kingdom, not all will be given faith.

EXACTLY!!!!!

So, the issue is NOT that the Bible is wrong about Christ dying for everyone, the issue is the Bible is RIGHT about God gives faith to some. Not all are justified because not all have faith; that is the orthodox, traditional Christian view.

Of course, not everyone is justified (universalism is an outgrowth of radical Calvinism)... but this is NOT because Christ is not the Savior, NOT because God wants most to fry in hell and so causes most to go there, NOT because Christ died for only some (and likely not you or me)- it's because not all have faith and therefore don't benefit from what Christ DID (not suffer because Christ did NOT).

Romans 9 speaks on the issue of what one can term as "double predestination"

Nope. Never. Not at all. It speaks of what is popularly called "single predestination."

Ephesians 1 emphasizes that God is sovereign and has dominion over us

Of course. But it never remotely says God desires most to fry in hell and thus causes that.... and it never says that Jesus ONLY died for a few (and odds are, that doesn't include you or me).

If you Love God and you KNOW that you Love God then you must respect that God first Loved you, all those who come to know and Love God should never doubt that God first loved them.

AMEN!!!

But how does that prove that God hates most people.... desires most to fry etnerally in hell and thus causes them to go there.... that Christ died ONLY for a limited few (and odds are, not you or me)?

And where is the verse that states God desires most to go to hell? That God causes most to go to hell? That Christ died for ONLY a few?

Please read the post you quoted it.... and # 67

Christ blood is shed for many (both Jew and Gentile) but not all peoples of the world.

Where does the Bible state that?

See...

1 John 2:2

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9




.

 

[Andrew]

No one here debates that. But where does it say for 'ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST the faithful?" That's the debate.







EXACTLY!!!!!

So, the issue is NOT that the Bible is wrong about Christ dying for everyone, the issue is the Bible is RIGHT about God gives faith to some. Not all are justified because not all have faith; that is the orthodox, traditional Christian view.

Of course, not everyone is justified (universalism is an outgrowth of radical Calvinism)... but this is NOT because Christ is not the Savior, NOT because God wants most to fry in hell and so causes most to go there, NOT because Christ died for only some (and likely not you or me)- it's because not all have faith and therefore don't benefit from what Christ DID (not suffer because Christ did NOT).







Nope. Never. Not at all. It speaks of what is popularly called "single predestination."






Of course. But it never remotely says God desires most to fry in hell and thus causes that.... and it never says that Jesus ONLY died for a few (and odds are, that doesn't include you or me).







AMEN!!!

But how does that prove that God hates most people.... desires most to fry etnerally in hell and thus causes them to go there.... that Christ died ONLY for a limited few (and odds are, not you or me)?

And where is the verse that states God desires most to go to hell? That God causes most to go to hell? That Christ died for ONLY a few?

Please read the post you quoted it.... and # 67






Where does the Bible state that?

See...

1 John 2:2

John 3:14-16

John 4:42

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

1 Timothy 2:4

1 Timothy 4:10

2 Peter 3:9




.

Fair enough.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" 1 Timothy 4:10

and

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9

these two stood out the most from your suggested verses.