Calvinism Vs Arminian

Josiah

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Lutheranism, Calvinism and Arminianism


Theresa Kiihn asked about an article which proposes that the deepest issue of God, His Eternal Foreknowledge and Election to salvation, may not be reducible to a consistent system, or even fully explainable. This has long been the position of the Lutheran Church and of historic, orthodox Christianity. Officially anyway, Christians have left the issue here Scripture does. But in the late 16th Century, a few followers of Arminius and of Calvin declared two competing sets of new dogmas, each very tight, interconnected, interrelated systems, which each holds is "logical." Calvinism and Arminianism, two new sets of dogmas claimed to be logically consistent, but clearly are un-biblical systems, and the historic and biblical position which admittedly contains mystery.


In the Reformed churches and their numerous revivalist descendants, a great conflict continues between the Calvinists and Arminians over the question: why are some saved and not others. The two consistent positions are named after French theologian John Calvin (1509-1564) and the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius (1560-1609). Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, and some Episcopalians and Baptists hold to at least some form of the TULIP position (although most in revised, "watered-down" forms), while Methodists, Holiness churches (Nazarene, etc.), Assemblies of God, many Episcopalians and many Baptists hold to the Arminian position. Both positions take certain Biblical passages to be clear in meaning, but seek to interpret away others. The Lutheran Formula of Concord set out a position that accepts the explicit Biblical passages on the topic at face value, while accepting that they do not add up to a tight. logical system. Why some are saved and others not is thus not a question whose answer God has opened up to us.

Radical Calvinism has summarized its position in the famous acronym TULIP, and this serves as a useful way to approach the issue (Calvinism is, if nothing else, easy to follow):




T: "total depravity"

Calvinism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

Arminianism: Man after the Fall can cooperate with God’s grace in conversion

Lutheranism: Agrees with Calvinism on total depravity, although it is expressed in the opposite way, that Jesus is the Savior and everything involving it is entirely His work and gift


Relevant Bible passages: Romans 3:9-20; Gal. 3:22


U: "unconditional election"

Calvinism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally chose some (the elect) for salvation and others (reprobates) for damnation.

Arminianism: Before the world was created, God foresaw those who would choose Him of their own free will and thus elected them to salvation

Lutheranism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (cause for damnation) any. Election is pure Gospel meant to comfort and assure.


Relevant Bible passages: Romans 9:11-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; Mat. 25:34, 41.


L: "limited atonement"

Calvinism: Jesus only died for the elect, objectively atoning for their sin, but he did not die for the sins of the reprobates.

Arminianism: Christ died to give all the possibility to be saved.

Lutheranism: Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; it is the divine gift of faith that means we receive this objective atonement and its benefits.

Relevant Bible passages: John 1:29; 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 19.



I: "irresistable grace"

Calvinism: In all of God's outward actions (preaching, baptism, etc.) there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

Arminianism: God gives in His outward actions the same grace to all; this grace can be resisted by all.

Lutheranism: The question is not answerable; for the elect, grace will triumph, yet those who reject Christ have rejected that Grace; yet the grace is the same (there is no secret, hidden grace).

Relevant Bible passages: Eph. 2:1-10; Acts 13:48; James 1:13-15



P: "perseverance of the saints" (sort of like "once saved, always saved.")


Calvinism: Salvation cannot be lost. Those who have truly put their faith in Christ may temporarily lose their faith and even live for a time in grave and unrepentant sin, without losing their salvation.

Arminianism: Salvation can be lost through unrepentant sin and unbelief.

Lutheranism: Salvation can be lost through unbelief, but this legal warning does not cancel the Gospel promise of election

Relevant Bible passages: 1 Cor. 10:12. 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22.


Originally posted at Here We Stand




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MennoSota

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Lutherans are merely practical Arminians. Semi-pelagians like most of evangelical America.
 

Lamb

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Lutherans are merely practical Arminians. Semi-pelagians like most of evangelical America.

Not at all as we've explained to you. We don't believe that we contribute to our salvation and that's the definition of those terms.
 

Andrew

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The Difference Between Calvinists and Arminians
https://youtu.be/F-C33QrDxNc
What a goofy statement
884642d261dff2c99748bd7150495abd.jpg
 

MennoSota

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Not at all as we've explained to you. We don't believe that we contribute to our salvation and that's the definition of those terms.
Yet, Lutherans believe God has atoned all of humanities sins so that all have been made holy and perfect in God's eyes.
Thus there is a conflict.
If all are atoned for and righteous, then God must judge them as perfected in Christ. Yet, Lutherans say that no faith is what condemns a person and since God chooses to give faith only to the elect, there remains the majority who die...entirely made righteous by Jesus atonement, yet condemned to hell.
This means that God is unjust because he condemns those for whom Jesus died, simply because God chose not to give them faith to believe that they already were made perfect in Christ. Ultimately the atoning sacrifice was a worthless act by God because it was nullified by no faith on the individuals part.
How do you live with that contradicting tension?
 

MennoSota

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What a goofy statement
884642d261dff2c99748bd7150495abd.jpg
Not really. But, certainly you feel it is goody...and we all know...feelings are the only thing that counts.
 

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Yet, Lutherans believe God has atoned all of humanities sins so that all have been made holy and perfect in God's eyes.
Thus there is a conflict.
If all are atoned for and righteous, then God must judge them as perfected in Christ. Yet, Lutherans say that no faith is what condemns a person and since God chooses to give faith only to the elect, there remains the majority who die...entirely made righteous by Jesus atonement, yet condemned to hell.
This means that God is unjust because he condemns those for whom Jesus died, simply because God chose not to give them faith to believe that they already were made perfect in Christ. Ultimately the atoning sacrifice was a worthless act by God because it was nullified by no faith on the individuals part.
How do you live with that contradicting tension?

You've tried to give a term to Lutherans that doesn't apply as I told you in the previous reply. Maybe you just haven't come up with the correct term?
 

Andrew

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Not really. But, certainly you feel it is goody...and we all know...feelings are the only thing that counts.
God wills that all be saved, he wants all to believe and to be saved. Anyway I'm still watching your videos so I'll get back.
 

MennoSota

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You've tried to give a term to Lutherans that doesn't apply as I told you in the previous reply. Maybe you just haven't come up with the correct term?
It applies. Lutherans simply fail to see their conflict with the atonement as a means of making faith synergistic. You want both, when it cannot be both.
I notice you don't disagree with the inherent conflict you have with universal atonement and limited faith.
 

MennoSota

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God wills that all be saved,
So...all must be saved...since God wills it.

he wants all to believe and to be saved.
So...all must believe...since God wants it.
Anyway I'm still watching your videos so I'll get back.
It's really just the same video. The second is the longer version.
 

Andrew

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So...all must be saved...since God wills it.


So...all must believe...since God wants it.

It's really just the same video. The second is the longer version.

The video is actually really good and well put, I understand what he means at least.
 

MennoSota

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The video is actually really good and well put, I understand what he means at least.
You avoided the important part. You seem oblivious to the conclusions of your assertions.
God wills that all be saved,
So...all must be saved...since God wills it.

he wants all to believe and to be saved.
So...all must believe...since God wants it.
 

Josiah

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It applies. Lutherans simply fail to see their conflict with the atonement as a means of making faith synergistic.


Absurd. Silly.


Lutherans agree with Scripture that Christ died for all. That's not synergistic.

Lutherans agree with Scripture that the divine gift of FAITH apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies this - and thus the individual benefits from it. This is not synergistic.


MennoSota said:
the inherent conflict you have with universal atonement and limited faith.

There is no inherent conflict.

If Romanos GIVES everyone here at CH a Starbucks Gift Card (PAID for)... and some don't use it (and thus don't benefit from it) does that mean that actually MOST of the gift cards he gave out were fakes, frauds, lies... stolen and never paid for? Does it mean that when you go to use yours, Romanos suddenly appears from out of nowhere and steals the card from you? No. It simply means you never used it - thus you don't benefit from it. It's not hard. As long as you don't do what Calvinists tend to do: eliminate faith.

Now... true.... God gives that faith not to all, and thus not all will benefit. But that by no means implies (much less logically demands) that Christ didn't die for all.


And I remind you: No Calvinists has yet to find even one verse that says "Jesus died ONLY for a few." And many here have listed MANY, MANY Scriptures that verbatim states He died for all.




MennoSota said:
So...all must be saved...since God wills it.


Please quote the verse that states, "Everything God wills happens... everything that happens is God's will."

Don't ask a question (questions don't substantiate anything, questions aren't apologetics).

Quote the verse that states God wants people to sin.

Quote the verse that states God wants most people to fry in hell.

Give the verse that says God wanted Eve to pick the fruit....

Give the verse that states God willed Satan to fall....

Don't boast of your brainy brain and great "logic"

Quote GOD saying that.




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Andrew

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You avoided the important part. You seem oblivious to the conclusions of your assertions.

So...all must be saved...since God wills it.


So...all must believe...since God wants it.
I understand your two points.
God would not save the rejectors from perishing because they rejected him fully and God does not choose them nor has he ever chosen them before and never will he choose them in the future therefore he never chose them for His Kingdom come since all eternity. The Goats destined for hell are the same goats that die in their sin instead of Christ.
Do we agree on this?
 

MennoSota

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I understand your two points.
God would not save the rejectors from perishing because they rejected him fully
You teach loss of salvation by works. Human rejection becomes greater than God's atoning sacrifice.
So, even though God has completely paid for their sins, that doesn't matter. For you, what really matters is that humans choose to reject God's full payment.
and God does not choose them nor has he ever chosen them before and never will he choose them in the future therefore he never chose them for His Kingdom come since all eternity.
Here you are correct, but your early assertion is that human rejection is the key and God's Sovereign choice is not the key.
You vascillate between unlimited atonement in the first statement to limited atonement in the second statement. Which one is it?

The Goats destined for hell are the same goats that die in their sin instead of Christ.
If they die in their sin, then Christ did not atone for their sin. Here you present limited atonement.

Do we agree on this?
We cannot agree until you figure out whether you believe in unlimited or limited atonement. At present you want to claim both, which cannot be. It must be either fully unlimited or it must be limited.
Does Jesus atonement cover the sins of the entire world or just the sins of those who believe?
 

Andrew

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Does Jesus atonement cover the sins of the entire world or just the sins of those who believe?

The Bible implies to me that only Gods sheep/believers/chosen/elect will pass through the gates of Heaven, in Christ we die to, and through his burial we are reborn for all eternity.
The goats however will die their first death to Sin and face a second death, God have mercy on those who die the second death.
Sheep = Heaven, Goats = Hell
 
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MennoSota

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The Bible implies to me that only Gods sheep/believers/chosen/elect will pass through the gates of Heaven, in Christ we die to, and through his burial we are reborn for all eternity.
The goats however will die their first death to Sin and face a second death, God have mercy on those who die the second death.
Sheep = Heaven, Goats = Hell :)
I don't think that you answered my question.

Does Jesus atonement cover the sins of the entire world or just the sins of those who believe?
 

Andrew

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I don't think that you answered my question.

Does Jesus atonement cover the sins of the entire world or just the sins of those who believe?

Those who believe are the sole recipients of the Atonement 100%
 
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