Calvinism Vs Arminian

MennoSota

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Josiah's self declared "extreme calvinism" is his crutch so he can ignore his massive biblical contradiction in his theology. It's been pointed out, ad naseum, but he fails to acknowledge his theological dilemma.
 

Josiah

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Josiah's massive biblical contradiction in his theology. It's been pointed out, ad naseum, but he fails to acknowledge his theological dilemma.


1. You have presented NOTHING (not one verse) that teaches the "L" "U" "I" or "P" of TULIP. You've just complained about requests for such.


2. When presented with a long, long list of Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, undeniably state EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of these inventions, you either ignore them or twist them 180 degrees so that they "mean" the exact opposite of what they state.


3. You keep accusing me of some "dilemma" or "contradiction" but have yet to document this. You only accuse me of saying things I never remotely ever said (and thus can't quote me saying it) OR you condemn my position by deleting faith (which of course I won't do).


4. You have shouted how we must repudiate any late denominational inventions that aren't clearly taught in the words of the Bible... but all you do is perfectly parrot the invented dogmas/traditions of a tiny few extreme latter-day Calvinists and show you have not one Scripture that supports any part of it. You have made this undeniably obvious.




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Andrew

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Double predestination is early Christian Gnostic dogma and Paul has clearly warned against false teachings as such.
God does not predestine anyone to fry in hell, he actually WILLS that none perish!
Sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell, its not that complicated, believe in Christ Jesus and ye shall have Eternal Life and shall not perish!
 
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MennoSota

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Double predestination is early Christian Gnostic dogma and Paul has clearly warned against false teachings as such.
God does not predestine anyone to fry in hell, he actually WILLS that none perish!
Sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell, its not that complicated, believe in Christ Jesus and ye shall have Eternal Life and shall not perish!

Show us the gnostic writings declaring double predestination. Thank you.
Second, human corruption predestines humanity to hell. God does not will all humanity to redemption, therefore you utterly butcher your interpretation of 2 Peter 3...as all Arminians do.
Finally, your last paragraph is great, as long as you acknowledge that no human can believe apart from God giving them the ability to believe through faith. Anything else is the same belief that Satan has.
 

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And Josiah continues to avoid God's word. Impressive crutch...
 

Andrew

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Show us the gnostic writings declaring double predestination. Thank you.
Second, human corruption predestines humanity to hell. God does not will all humanity to redemption, therefore you utterly butcher your interpretation of 2 Peter 3...as all Arminians do.
Finally, your last paragraph is great, as long as you acknowledge that no human can believe apart from God giving them the ability to believe through faith. Anything else is the same belief that Satan has.
Im sorry, its not early christian gnostic but pre-christian... that is, before christ, but it was a teaching that came back during Calvins time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

2a626bed5b2f3857a48c971fe4fa11ae.jpg
 

Josiah

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And Josiah continues to avoid God's word...



1. You have presented NOTHING (not one verse) that teaches the "L" "U" "I" or "P" of TULIP. You've just complained about requests for such.


2. When presented by many here with a long, long list of Scriptures that flat-out, verbatim, undeniably state EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of these inventions, you either ignore them or twist them 180 degrees so that they you claim they "mean" the exact opposite of what they state.


3. You keep accusing me endlessly of some mysterious "dilemma" or "contradiction" but have yet to document this. You only accuse me of saying things I never remotely ever said (and thus can't quote me saying it) OR you condemn my position by deleting faith from it (which of course I won't do).


4. You have shouted how we must repudiate any late denominational inventions that aren't clearly taught in the words of the Bible... but all you do is perfectly parrot the invented dogmas/traditions of a tiny few extreme latter-day Calvinists and show you have not one Scripture that supports any part of it. You have made this undeniably obvious.



.
 

MennoSota

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Im sorry, its not early christian gnostic but pre-christian... that is, before christ, but it was a teaching that came back during Calvins time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

2a626bed5b2f3857a48c971fe4fa11ae.jpg
Yeah...Wikipedia is where I go for scholarly input...
Sorry, Asuza, but it seems you are still far from understanding Reformed theology. I'm afraid our resident Lutheratholic isn't helping with his crutch posts.
 

Josiah

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Andrew,

Yes, the TULIP insistence that God predestines ALL to their eventual afterlife in heaven or hell (often called "double predestination") is often attributed to Greek secular philosophy, to Gnosticism, and often to Augustine. But "God causes most to fry in hell" idea has been universally repudiated until Calvin entertained it (I'm not sure he exactly went that far) and then a few latter-day extreme radical Calvinists invented TULIP (this is the "U" part of that). Again the "U" refers to ALL (not just the saved) and the precise term is "predestine" with means "to cause, to make happen, to be responsible for." Yes, every Calvinists personally known to me (and that includes my wife's family clearly reject predestination to hell, their positions (really on all of TULIP, not just the "U") is actually quite Lutheran.

Of course, there's no such thing as "passive predestination." That's an oxymoron. The word (in koine Greek as well as in English and in Latin) MEANS to cause. I caused the sun to rise by willing and doing absolutely NOTHING" is ... well... amazing these folks boast so much about their "logic."
 

Andrew

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Yeah...Wikipedia is where I go for scholarly input...
Sorry, Asuza, but it seems you are still far from understanding Reformed theology. I'm afraid our resident Lutheratholic isn't helping with his crutch posts.
Why do you keep using my Tapatalk account handle? lol
Anyway, lets just ignore the whole gnosticism thing, im not going out of my way to prove you your theory is wrong when you already prove it by lack of biblical support.
 

Andrew

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by the way Azusa St. is what that name is based on in case you ever were wondering :)
 

MennoSota

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Why do you keep using my Tapatalk account handle? lol
Anyway, lets just ignore the whole gnosticism thing, im not going out of my way to prove you your theory is wrong when you already prove it by lack of biblical support.
Andrew, much biblical support has been provided. I have shown you Jesus own words from John 6, John 10 and John 17. I didn't just quote a verse, I quoted passages. If Jesus cannot convince you then no one can.
 

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MennoSota

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Pentecostal reference my man
Arminian. A product of Charles Finney, and his pelagian teaching. It makes sense that Reformed theology would be hard to swallow. Too much God and not enough Man for those who follow Finney.
 

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Arminian. A product of Charles Finney, and his pelagian teaching. It makes sense that Reformed theology would be hard to swallow. Too much God and not enough Man for those who follow Finney.
I don't follow Finney nor am I a Pentecostal.
 

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Menno are still borns predestined for hell?
 

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Menno are still borns predestined for hell?
We have gone over this.
First, we don't know. God may or may not extend grace.
2 Samuel 12 gives us a possible indication.
2 Samuel 12:15-23
And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
What do you think? Will God be gracious? He is not obligated. Can we faithfully accept God's Sovereignty in this matter?
 

Josiah

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We have gone over this.
First, we don't know. God may or may not extend grace.
2 Samuel 12 gives us a possible indication.
2 Samuel 12:15-23
And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
What do you think? Will God be gracious? He is not obligated. Can we faithfully accept God's Sovereignty in this matter?



1. Your ability to put a question mark at the end of a sentence substantiates NOTHING. Asking a question is NOT apologetics.


2.
Here again, you reference a Scripture that - if you actually read it - substantiates NOTHING in TULIP. Nothing. It doesn't say that God causes most to fry in hell.... it doesn't say that Christ died for only a few.... it doesn't say that God's grace is irresistable.... it doesn't say that if one has faith at any point in their life ergo they are eternally saved. It's a nice verse... it just does nothing for your positions.


I remind you of what we all know: YOU are the one who has gone on and on about how we must repudiate anything not explicitely taught in the words of Scripture (inferences, for example, are mandated to be disallowed). You repudiate baptizing babies because there is no obvious example of such and no verse that says "Thou canst baptize those under the age of X." Remember? That's YOUR insistence. AND that we all must reject any and all denominational tradition. But friend, thats all you do. You just parrot (and not always well) the tradition of a few latter-day radical Calvinists who invented this new set of dogmas (TULIP) in the late 16th Century. And you've proven you have NOT ONE VERSE that actually states any of these new denominational traditions - not one. Thus, BY YOUR OWN INSISTENCE .,, YOUR insistence.... we MUST repudiate and condemn these new denominational traditions.




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