Calvinism Vs Arminian

Andrew

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God has chosen whom he will reconcile to himself. That is predestination.
What does that mean for all whom God has not chosen to reconcile to himself, Andrew? Can all those whom God does not choose to reconcile somehow choose to have faith anyway? What does the Bible say? Will those who are in rebellion to God, simply choose to put down their weapons and surrender with no prompting from God?
Predestination is not complicated. Humans imagining they have goodness in them that will cause them to choose God is what is complicated. It's complicated because it is utterly false and yet...even Christians harbor in their hearts the notion that they are special for having chosen God. Even you are trying to make that claim. You desperately want to pat yourself on the back for your choice. You don't actually want to accept that there was literally nothing in you that chose God. You don't want to accept that ALL your righteousness is as filthy rags. Somehow you harbor thoughts of goodness about yourself, even though God tells you there is none righteous.
Drew, accept that you are utterly dependent upon God and God only.

I accept that I am utterly dependent upon God through Jesus, Jesus says "believe in me and thou shall be saved" and he who "ask shall recieve" I believe therefore I AM saved! If I took pride in the fact that I have faith I would more likely be a Calvinists.. that's how I view your defensive and seemingly prideful language.
We evidently aren't a "lets agree to disagree" bunch here, we all give each other opportunity Menno -to hear the others full opinion and no I don't need to give myself a pat on the back unless it's for these pesky mosquitoes lol
Anyway, sheep go to heaven goats go to hell so lets agree to agree on that.
 

MennoSota

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Andrew wrote:
I believe therefore I AM saved!
Who enables you to believe? You or God?
Can you have faith if God does not first will you to believe?
This answer is the difference between Calvinists and Arminians.
 

Andrew

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Andrew wrote:

Who enables you to believe? You or God?
Can you have faith if God does not first will you to believe?
This answer is the difference between Calvinists and Arminians.

God enables
God
"Can you have faith if God does not first will you to believe?" I suppose if God never created me I would not be able to believe, does this count as a check?
 

MoreCoffee

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Andrew wrote:

Who enables you to believe?
God.
It is God who enables Andrew to believe. It is God who enables everything and everybody.
It is God who enables Satan to exist.
It is God who enables the archangel Michael to live.
It is God who created both Satan and Michael.
It is God who created every believer and every atheist.

You or God?
Can you have faith if God does not first will you to believe?
No.
(I Timothy 2:4 [ESV2011]) [It is God] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(II Peter 3:9 [ESV2011]) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

This answer is the difference between Calvinists and Arminians.
The answer in every case is God.
And in every case it is "you" who believes.
In every case it is "you" who repents.
In every case it is "you" who comes to a knowledge of the truth.
Yet some do not. Some do not believe. Some do not repent. Some to not come to a knowledge of the truth.
 

MennoSota

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God enables
God
"Can you have faith if God does not first will you to believe?" I suppose if God never created me I would not be able to believe, does this count as a check?
No, it doesn't count as a check. You still harbor yourself as the instigator and enabler of your faith.
 

MennoSota

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God.
It is God who enables Andrew to believe. It is God who enables everything and everybody.
It is God who enables Satan to exist.
It is God who enables the archangel Michael to live.
It is God who created both Satan and Michael.
It is God who created every believer and every atheist.

No.
(I Timothy 2:4 [ESV2011]) [It is God] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(II Peter 3:9 [ESV2011]) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


The answer in every case is God.
And in every case it is "you" who believes.
In every case it is "you" who repents.
In every case it is "you" who comes to a knowledge of the truth.
Yet some do not. Some do not believe. Some do not repent. Some to not come to a knowledge of the truth.
Congratulations, you are a Calvinist. You believe only because God makes it so.
 

MoreCoffee

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Congratulations, you are a Calvinist. You believe only because God makes it so.

How easily man's name becomes the name of religion.

Let the faithful forego man's name.

Take instead the name given by God to his people.

Christian.
 

MennoSota

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How easily man's name becomes the name of religion.

Let the faithful forego man's name.

Take instead the name given by God to his people.

Christian.

Kinda like...pope...or catechism...
Let God's word be truth and every man a liar.
 

MoreCoffee

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Kinda like...pope...or catechism...
No.

Pope is a person and catechism is a book.

Neither is the name of a religion.

Except in the minds of those who prefer to say "papist" rather than "Catholic".

Let God's word be truth and every man a liar.

God is true, as the holy scriptures say.

I am curious why you misquoted holy scripture.

The verse says:
(Romans 3:3-4 [ESV2011]) [3] What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? [4] By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.​
 
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MoreCoffee

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Let's return to what the holy scriptures say.

(I Timothy 2:4 [ESV2011]) [It is God] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(II Peter 3:9 [ESV2011]) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

How can The I, L, and U of TULIP be true when God desires all to be saved, and wishes all to reach repentance? And when all are made alive in Christ?

(I Corinthians 15:22 [ESV2011]) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
 

atpollard

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Let's return to what the holy scriptures say.

(I Timothy 2:4 [ESV2011]) [It is God] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(II Peter 3:9 [ESV2011]) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

How can The I, L, and U of TULIP be true when God desires all to be saved, and wishes all to reach repentance? And when all are made alive in Christ?

(I Corinthians 15:22 [ESV2011]) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
2 Peter 3:9 is being ripped out of context to say something that it does not say.

I am not immediately familiar with the context surrounding the other verses, but I know that you are using 2 Peter dishonestly.
 

MennoSota

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2 Peter 3:9 is being ripped out of context to say something that it does not say.

I am not immediately familiar with the context surrounding the other verses, but I know that you are using 2 Peter dishonestly.
1 Timothy is also being ripped out of context, but it seems our friends here just simply don't care.
1 Timothy 2:1-7
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

People in position of authority should be prayed for as God saves from all social groups. We see throughout the early church that prejudices had to be shot down as people had the cultural tendency to think God would only save people like themselves and not those whom they despised. Paul informs the church here that they should intercede for the pagan rulers who tended to persecute them because God saves pagan rulers just as he saves Jews, Galatians, Ephesians, Corinthians, etc. God is not prejudiced against any status group or ethnicity. God saves all.
 
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MoreCoffee

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2 Peter 3:9 is being ripped out of context to say something that it does not say.

I am not immediately familiar with the context surrounding the other verses, but I know that you are using 2 Peter dishonestly.

What do you propose as the context that changes the meaning of the words in 2Peter 3:9?
(II Peter 3:8-10 [ESV2011]) [8] But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9] The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.​
The quote includes the verses in the paragraph in which verse 9 occurs. What is problematic for taking the words "[The Lord] is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance"?
 

MoreCoffee

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1 Timothy is also being ripped out of context, but it seems our friends here just simply don't care.
1 Timothy 2:1-7
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

People in position of authority should be prayed for as God saves from all social groups. We see throughout the early church that prejudices had to be shot down as people had the cultural tendency to think God would only save people like themselves and not those whom they despised. Paul informs the church here that they should intercede for the pagan rulers who tended to persecute them because God saves pagan rulers just as he saves Jews, Galatians, Ephesians, Corinthians, etc. God is not prejudiced against any status group or ethnicity. God saves all.

1Timothy 2:1-7 does not make "all" in verse 4 mean "all kinds of people" as you suggest.

Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian commentator writes:

Verse 4. Who will have all men to be saved. That is, it is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word will cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of any one. Thus it may be said of God that he "wills" that his creatures may be happy--because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness--though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy. God wills that sickness should be relieved, and sorrow mitigated, and that the oppressed should go free, because it is agreeable to his nature; though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to produce it. A parent wills the welfare of his child. It is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires; and he makes every needful arrangement for it. If the child is not virtuous and happy, it is his own fault. So God wills that all men should be saved. It would be in accordance with his benevolent nature. He has made ample provision for it. He uses all proper means to secure their salvation. He uses no positive means to prevent it, and if they are not saved it will be their own fault. For places in the New Testament where the word here translated "will" (θελω) means to desire or wish, Lk 8:20, 23:8, Jn 16:19; Gal 4:20, Mk 7:24, 1Cor 7:7, 11:3, 14:5, Mt 15:28. This passage cannot mean, as many have supposed, that God wills that all kinds of men should be saved, or that some sinners of every rank and class may be saved, because

(1.) the natural and obvious interpretation of the language is opposed to such a sense. The language expresses the desire that "all men" should be saved, and we should not depart from the obvious sense of a passage unless necessity requires it.

(2.) Prayer and thanksgiving 1Timm 2:1 are directed to be offered, not for some of all ranks and conditions, but for all mankind. No exception is made, and no direction is given that we should exclude any of the race from the expressions of our sympathy, and from an interest in our supplications. The reason given here for that prayer is, that God desires that all men should be saved. But how could this be a reason for praying for all, if it means that God desired only the salvation of some of all ranks?

(3.) In 1Timm 2:5,6, the apostle gives reasons showing that God wished the salvation of all men, and those reasons are such as to prove that the language here is to be taken in the most unlimited sense. Those reasons are,

(a) that there is one God over all, and one Mediator between God and men--showing that God is the Father of all, and has the same interest in all; and

(b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all--showing that God desired their salvation. This verse proves

(1.) that salvation is provided for all --for if God wished all men to be saved, he would undoubtedly make provision for their salvation; and if he had not made such provision, it could not be said that he desired their salvation, since no one can doubt that he has power to provide for the salvation of all;

(2.) that salvation should be offered to all men--for if God desires it, it is right for his ministers to announce that desire, and if he desires it, it is not proper for them to announce anything contrary to this;

(3.) that men are to blame if they are not saved. If God did not wish their salvation, and if he had made no provision for it, they could not be to blame if they rejected the gospel. If God wishes it, and has made provision for it, and they are not saved, the sin must be their own--and it is a great sin, for there is no greater crime which a man can commit than to destroy his own soul, and to make himself the eternal enemy of his Maker.
And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. The truth which God has revealed: the "truth as it is in Jesus." Eph 4:21.

(b) "Who will have" Jn 3:15,16, 2Pet 3:9
 

MennoSota

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MC, I am always impressed with your inability to think for yourself. I blame it on your church.
But, I will play your game...
Verse 4*

Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in*1 Timothy 2:1*are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also

come to the knowledge of the truth: of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him, and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus; not merely to a notional knowledge of it, which persons may arrive unto, and not be saved, but a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it; and all that are saved are brought to such a knowledge, which is owing to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God, who hides the knowledge of Gospel truths from the wise and prudent, and reveals them to babes: whence it appears, that it is not his will with respect to every individual of mankind; that they should thus come to the knowledge of the truth; for was it his will they should, he would, no doubt, give to every man the means of it, which he has not, nor does he; he suffered all nations to walk in their own ways, and overlooked their times of ignorance, and sent no message nor messenger to inform them of his will; he gave his word to Jacob, and his statutes unto Israel only; and the Gospel is now sent into one part of the world, and not another; and where it does come, it is hid to the most; many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie, and few are savingly and experimentally acquainted with the truths of the Gospel; though all that are saved are brought to the knowledge of such truths as are necessary to salvation; for they are chosen to it through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/1-timothy-2.html
 

MoreCoffee

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MC, I am always impressed with your inability to think for yourself.

Christ did not create the Church so people could invent religions for themselves.
 

Josiah

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Christ did not create the Church so people could invent religions for themselves.


AMEN!


That applies equally to denominations, such as the RCC or LCMS.

I agree with you, a huge problem in Christianity is the propensity for Christian people, churches, sects and denominations to appoint self to "answer" the questions of self - and then tell the world and God Himself the new dogma it invented. As my Greek Orthodox friend often said, "Christians don't seem to know how to shut up" or as Luther put it, "Humility is the foundation of all good theology" and as John Wesley is credited as saying,"We should be bold where Christians are bold, silent where Scripture is silent, and keen to know the difference."



What I see in BOTH these radical latter-day Calvinists AND Arminianists is.... ironically... a return to Rome, a return to the very thing once important to the Reformation, a repudiation of one denomination inventing a new religion simply because all this new teaching "made sense" to it. The Reformers rejected new, unique dogmas of the singular RCC such as Purgatory, Indulgences, Transubstantiation (rather than Real Presence), Infallibility of the RCC's bishop, etc. because these were new, unique, non-ecumenical teachings not taught in Scripture. Well, IMO, these latter-day radical Calvinists and Arminianists did exactly the same thing (only one could hold worse). Fortunately, one of those (TULIP radical Calvinism) has almost universally been rejected but the other (Arminianism) is very much alive and well (and even common among Catholics). I've read Catholics comment that many Lutherans, Calvinists and Anglicans are disappointed with the Reformation.... and this is what they mean, some simply "lost" the point of Luther and Calvin and ran wild, ironically (and it IS very ironic) often went "full-circle." Indeed, since probably no one is reading this.... personally.... I'm more confortable with much of Catholicism than I am with much of modern "Evangelical" Protestantism.

BTW, these are discussions familiar to me.... my wife was raised in a very small, very conservative Reformed church; both of her parents from a long line of Reformed pastors going back centuries. We had lots of discussions and I still do with my in-laws. For my beloved, it was never a case of "leaving" TULIP since she never held to it - at least in the original form; in practice, TULIP has been radically redefined to where it is essentially Lutheran. She had other issues: The Sacraments, much more liturgical worship, more embrace of Tradition and the Councils, the humility and simplicity. I went to her church.... she went to mine.... we went to others.... she decided to become Lutheran. And her pastor (life long) was pleased (especially when he learned I'm LCMS, he told me).




MennoSota said:
MC, I am always impressed with your inability to think for yourself


... well.... I'll leave alone the issue of Catholic LAITY.

But the problem, IMO, is that the inventors of Catholic Dogma think too much. I WISH they were unable to do so but rather simple were "stewards of the mysteries of God." If they had, perhaps 1054 and 1521 never would have happened?



- Josiah



.
 
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Josiah

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I acknowledge the craft of extreme TULIP Calvinists and extreme Arminianists to TWIST many, many, many Scriptures so as to "teach" the exact opposite of what they say.

What I equally notice is the inability to quote any Scripture teaching what they do. Still waiting for a verse that actually says, "Jesus died ONLY for the church" (not a verse that says "Jesus died for the church" but ONLY).... "God predestines most people to fry in hell" "If one has faith at any point in their life, they are saved." "God's grace in justification cannot be resiisted." You know, at least one verse that teaches these key, defining, distictive points. Ah, these are the same people who shout, "Where does Scripture say we go to Purgatory when we die!!!! Where is the verse that says Mary was born sinless!!!!" But when it comes to their own unique invented dogmas..... nothing.... just some wild eisegesis to spin a LOT of Scriptures to say the exact opposite of what they do.





.
 

MennoSota

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Christ did not create the Church so people could invent religions for themselves.
Right, which is why there is no legitimacy in Rome as a church of God's creation.
 

atpollard

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What do you propose as the context that changes the meaning of the words in 2Peter 3:9?
(II Peter 3:8-10 [ESV2011]) [8] But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [9] The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. [10] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.​
The quote includes the verses in the paragraph in which verse 9 occurs. What is problematic for taking the words "[The Lord] is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance"?

Who are the “YOU” that God is patient towards?
Are they the same group as the “ANY” that God does not wish to perish?
What is 2 Peter 3 talking about and trying to say? The BIG PICTURE?

(Answering those questions for yourself should clarify the meaning of the verse in question as part of its larger context.)
 
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