Calvinism Vs Arminian

[MennoSota]

Right? Not only that but God made Hitler do what he did, even worse God causes the devil to do what he does because as Menno puts it... he is Sovereign over ALL his creation.. none are excluded.

No.
God does not cause sin.
God does ordain, say "yes" to the sinful actions of men. God allows men to do the evil that is in their heart.
That is not even close to God "causing" sin.
How twisted is your mind to misunderstand God's ordained will as God's causing sin to be actualized?
Do you wish that God would remove His mercy and grace so that He might judge you immediately upon the very moment you plot the evil in your heart? Do you want God to ordain your death and not allow you to act wickedly? Pray to God, perhaps He may answer your prayers...if this is what you wish.
If not, then do not falsely state that I or any other Reformed Christian say that God causes sin. Such a claim is anathema. It is a lie from hell. Yes, Josiah has preached a lie from hell when he claims that Calvinists teach that God caused sin. How wicked that lie is. How pathetic that you and 91 would fall for that lie and perpetuate such a lie. May God bring you all to repentance for your false characterization.

 

[Andrew]

No.
God does not cause sin.
God does ordain, say "yes" to the sinful actions of men. God allows men to do the evil that is in their heart.
That is not even close to God "causing" sin.
How twisted is your mind to misunderstand God's ordained will as God's causing sin to be actualized?
Do you wish that God would remove His mercy and grace so that He might judge you immediately upon the very moment you plot the evil in your heart? Do you want God to ordain your death and not allow you to act wickedly? Pray to God, perhaps He may answer your prayers...if this is what you wish.
If not, then do not falsely state that I or any other Reformed Christian say that God causes sin. Such a claim is anathema. It is a lie from hell. Yes, Josiah has preached a lie from hell when he claims that Calvinists teach that God caused sin. How wicked that lie is. How pathetic that you and 91 would fall for that lie and perpetuate such a lie. May God bring you all to repentance for your false characterization.

If it was predestined from all eternity and before the creation (thus before the fall) that God predestined to save just a few then it only makes sense that he predestined that the majority are created for hell, therefore God knew that man would fall even before he created them... did God predestine that Adam and Eve betray him by taking the fruit?
I simply deny your claim that humans cannot choose to believe in God when it's quite literal that Jesus tells us to "believe", belief is a choice and not just a zap of a magic wand... The sheep REACT/RESPOND to his call, God does not toss a rope over their heads and yank them to him as you seem to suggest

 

[Andrew]

To be fair I am reminded of this verse

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
John 1:12-13

This is called the new birth.

To the believer on his name the exchange (for lack of a better word) is irresistible due to Gods will and not ours, for belief in his name is Gods will to adopt us as his sons.
Without the Word it is indeed impossible for human will (this "human will" is recognised as 'will' other than Gods Will) -to know and accept God...
In predestination standards ALL are doing Gods Will, scripture rejects this theology.

 

[MennoSota]

If it was predestined from all eternity and before the creation (thus before the fall) that God predestined to save just a few then it only makes sense that he predestined that the majority are created for hell, therefore God knew that man would fall even before he created them... did God predestine that Adam and Eve betray him by taking the fruit?
I simply deny your claim that humans cannot choose to believe in God when it's quite literal that Jesus tells us to "believe", belief is a choice and not just a zap of a magic wand... The sheep REACT/RESPOND to his call, God does not toss a rope over their heads and yank them to him as you seem to suggest

Predestined is not synonymous with the word "caused."
Second, you can deny the claim all you want, but that will not change God's word.
Matthew 1:21
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins.”
John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 17:24-26
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
Romans 8:28-33
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

[Andrew]

Belief is a response to his call and his believers are his sheep whom will be atoned for, the goats are the rejectors and the wolves are in my understanding, worse than the goats because they exploit the word of God... like I said I think we agree on many levels, God chooses his sheep but I don't believe he pre damns a single soul, the goat and sheep are a metaphor, all sheep are sheep right?

 

[Josiah]

Of course, Josiah has uttered a completely false statement and you have bought it as truth.

Of course, in extreme Calvinism, the "U" of TULIP (predestination) applies to ALL - that's the whole point in radical Calvinism. "God's sovereign will is applied to all, unconditionally." Predestination means "to cause." If Predestination applies to all, then God CAUSES what happens to all - the majority that fry eternally in hell and the few that enjoy heaven. Predestination = to cause, to make happen.


What I correctly pointed out is that Calvinists often run away from TULIP (to their great credit). We see that with 4 of the 5 points. They run away from TULIP and (I find this interesting) pretty much right to Lutheranism. What Calvinists do with the "U" is strip it of the entire point the extreme latter-day Calvinists desired to make, they make it the Lutheran view of Election - the pure GOSPEL that before they were even born, the save were unconditionally loved and God chose them for faith. This said without saying ANYTHING about the unsaved, without twisted Gospel into Law, without denying what Scripture says: that God desires all to be saved, that Christ died for everyone. Calvinists, denying the "U" of TULIP, simply say "God predestines the elect" and then STOP.... or at most say "and seems to pass over others." This eliminates the best know aspect of hyper-Calvinism: DOUBLE Predestination. Gone then is what one Calvinist over at CF posted, "God is glorified by those in hell."

What we have here is Josiah being purposefully false in an attempt to avoid the conflict he embraces between unconditional atonement and the obvious connection of universal salvation. The two are married, but you and Josiah deny the marriage by claiming a double jeopardy by God himself.

Again, we see the classic hyper-Calvinists deleting of faith.

Here we see again the elimination of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, the foundational teaching of Protestantism.

Here we see again why Universalism is an outgrowth of extreme Calvinism, as both simply discard faith entirely.


NO, as so many have pointed out to you, that Christ died for all does NOT mean universalism - that's an error CALVINISTS made.
Yes, Christ died for all exactly as the Bible verbatim and often states..... but Christ dying for one does not thereby save them, only in the Calvinist error of faithless justification.
It is FAITH that apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies on what Christ has done and THUS the individual benefits from it.
Your deleting faith creates this 'problem' for you.... Your error is in eliminating faith ... and that leads to more error which leads to even more error....


Your Calvinist argument that if Christ died for all ERGO all are saved is just part of the Calvinist error, proof of the absurd and unbiblical and unorthodox things that stem from TULIP. No, my Calvinist friend, faith is not irrelevant, moot, worthless. The reason not all are saved is that not all have faith. You have to change that because TULIP eliminates faith and the Protestant distinctive of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. And of course, the dogma that Christ died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few is directly, verbatim contradicted by a HOST of clear Scriptures and as you yourself have proven, is not taught by any verse.



Here's the silly and illogical "logic" of the "L" in TULIP: 1. Not all are saved. 2. Therefore, it must be Christ could NOT have died for all (of course, flat-out contradicting Scripture). Now, besides the obvious illogic here, if we don't delete faith, it's simple. Let's say you are given a Starbucks Gift Card. And you don't ever benefit from it. Does THAT prove that ERGO the ONLY possibility is that you were given a fake, a fraud, a sick joke, a card stolen and never paid for? Could it be you simply never used it, never apprehended/embraced/trusted/relied ("faith") it? Ah, the very thing Scripture says... the very reason for the last aspect of the Protestant doctrine of Justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus- Sola Fide.




- Josiah





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[Josiah]

Ultimately, Jesus died for whomever GOD says He died for. We are powerless to add or subtract from such a decision.

Here we agree.... It's just I note the Bible verbatim, literally says - over and over and over - that that's everyone.


And so far, in 400+ years, no radical Calvinist has yet to find the verse that says Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a limited FEW (and thus, odds are, not you or me).

You believe that God punishes the same sin TWICE for sinners, first in Christ on the Cross and then on the Sinner in Hell.

Quote me saying that, my friend. Because I don't remember EVER saying such a thing.


Here's ONE of the places where I think radical Calvinists disagree with the rest of Christianity: Calvinists eliminate faith, the rest of us do not.

Yes, Christ died for all - just as the Bible so often verbatim says. Do all benefit from that? No, because not all have faith. The rest of Christians can point to faith because we've not eliminated it or regarded it as irrelevant in justification. Faith, we believe, is what apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies upon what Christ died - and THUS benefits from it. This perhaps is why the Bible calls on all to believe rather than calling on Christ to be less stingy. The Bible, Tradition, the Councils all agree that FAITH is limited (and so historically, Election has been applied to FAITH, not Jesus) but the Bible, Tradition, the Councils do not eliminate faith from justification.





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[Andrew]

Of course, in extreme Calvinism, the "U" of TULIP (predestination) applies to ALL - that's the whole point in radical Calvinism. "God's sovereign will is applied to all, unconditionally." Predestination means "to cause." If Predestination applies to all, then God CAUSES what happens to all - the majority that fry eternally in hell and the few that enjoy heaven. Predestination = to cause, to make happen.


What I correctly pointed out is that Calvinists often run away from TULIP (to their great credit). We see that with 4 of the 5 points. They run away from TULIP and (I find this interesting) pretty much right to Lutheranism. What Calvinists do with the "U" is strip it of the entire point the extreme latter-day Calvinists desired to make, they make it the Lutheran view of Election - the pure GOSPEL that before they were even born, the save were unconditionally loved and God chose them for faith. This said without saying ANYTHING about the unsaved, without twisted Gospel into Law, without denying what Scripture says: that God desires all to be saved, that Christ died for everyone. Calvinists, denying the "U" of TULIP, simply say "God predestines the elect" and then STOP.... or at most say "and seems to pass over others." This eliminates the best know aspect of hyper-Calvinism: DOUBLE Predestination. Gone then is what one Calvinist over at CF posted, "God is glorified by those in hell."







Again, we see the classic hyper-Calvinists deleting of faith.

Here we see again the elimination of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, the foundational teaching of Protestantism.

Here we see again why Universalism is an outgrowth of extreme Calvinism, as both simply discard faith entirely.


NO, as so many have pointed out to you, that Christ died for all does NOT mean universalism - that's an error CALVINISTS made. Yes, Christ died for all the Bible verbatim and often states..... but Christ dying for one does not save them, only in the Calvinist error of deleting faith. It is FAITH that apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies on what Christ has done and THUS the individual benefits from it. Your deleting faith creates this 'problem' for you.... Your error is in eliminating faith ... and that leads to more error which leads to even more error....


Your Calvinist argument that if Christ died for all ERGO all are saved is just part of the Calvinist error, proof of the absurd and unbiblical and unorthodox things that stem from TULIP. No, my Calvinist friend, faith is not irrelevant, moot, worthless. The reason not all are saved is that not all have faith. You have to change that because TULIP eliminates faith and the Protestant distinctive of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. And of course, the dogma that Christ died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few is directly, verbatim contradicted by a HOST of clear Scriptures and as you yourself have proven, is not taught by any verse.




- Josiah





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Not just that but Mennos definition of grace is obscure as well as predestination, we know he rejects that predestination = to make happen, but apparently Grace according to him just means Life in general, or that Gods Grace is that he wills us to stay alive "when we should be killed" Mercy is also related to life in general, Gods Mercy is that he allows us to live... so by skewing the definition of words he is taking them out of biblical context.
A video I posted earlier makes an interesting point that these hyper Calvinist are on the level of extinguishing Justification and Grace all together, since the Elect are ordained Justified from all eternity... so whats the point of Grace, Mercy and Justification? It becomes empty and meaningless words.
It's a horrible thought to think that my belief that I have faith may just be wishful thinking because I might have been created solely to burn in hell for all eternity and no matter what I do or how hard I pray chances are I am going to fry, in the end the Elect are just a roll of the dice and chance... heresy imo.
I am fine with the sheep being the sheep and goats being the goats (believers to rejectors) because it's such a great biblical metaphor that TULIP wishes to replace. I don't walk on all fours and go "bahhhh" but it doesn't take a second for a believer to understand what God means by this metaphor.

 

[Josiah]

he rejects that predestination = to make happen

Calvinists tend to RUN from TULIP (to their credit). They often end up being Lutheran on this.

The reality is predestination MEANS to cause, to make happen. Sorry, it's exactly what the word means. And as I understand it, the word in Greek means this to the absolute extreme extent. The TULIP position is that the soverign will of God for ALL means that God PREDESTINES all to their eventual fate - most to fry in hell, some to enjoy heaven. The whole point of "predestine" is to cause, to make happen, to be responsible for. No, Calvinists do not apply this to EVERYTHING (well, TULIP doesn't, some hyper-Calvinists do) just in Justification: whether one ends up in heaven or hell. Here's the problem: The predestine to HELL that is of course what Calvinists argue is generally the case, the fate of MOST, is contradictory of Scripture and horrific, so they tend to eliminate the whole point of the "U" and come up with spins that simply repudiate the "U", things like "Well... God elects some to heaven and the rest, well, He does not predestine them at all" (an odd way of saying the Lutheran, Anglican and officially Catholic position and contradicting the whole point of the "U").

It's a horrible thought to think that my belief that I have faith may just be wishful thinking because I might have been created solely to burn in hell for all eternity and no matter what I do or how hard I pray chances are I am going to fry, in the end the Elect are just a roll of the dice and chance... heresy imo.

Obviously, a LOT of TULIP is not only clearly contradictory of Scripture, of 2000 years of Christianity, etc. but in practice, horrifies and terrifies. Yes, by eliminating faith, it means that my faith is meaningless. I may be trusting and relying in CHRIST as MY Savior, but according to the "L" of TULIP, odds are He's not MY Savior... You'll never know until you get to those pearly gates and discover if God has played a sick joke on you or not, whether Christ died for ME or not. In classic, traditional, biblical Christianity, Christ died for ALL.... thus He died for ME.... so if I am apprehending/embracing/trusting/relying on HIM I benefit from that. I don't have to be terrorized all my life wondering if I'm among the few for whom Christ died, whether my faith is trusting in something real and for me or some phantom, some trick, some fraud, some sick joke. If my faith is in Christ the Savior, I have the salvation He provided for me on the Cross. I can KNOW. I can be CERTAIN.

A video I posted earlier makes an interesting point that these hyper Calvinist are on the level of extinguishing Justification and Grace all together, sense the Elect are ordained Justified from all eternity... so whats the point of Grace, Mercy and Justification? It becomes empty and meaningless words.

Yes.


Don't forget that hyper-Calvinists START with a very biblical, very true point: Monergism. It's just that they push this (in a way they consider logically but is often very illogical) to a radical extreme that flat out contradicts Christianity and creates a horrible God and terrifying religion. There's a good reason Calvinists usually RUN from TULIP.... But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... there is much good at the start in Calvinism. Probaably the STARTING POINT of all these TULIP dogmas is true and correct.... it's just these tiny few latter-day Calvinists couldn't leave well enough alone, wouldn't stick with Scripture, imputed what they regarded their smarter self into things... ending up doing the opposite of what they probably desired.


But yes..... as we've witnessed.... TULIP destroys Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It's a very, very radical, interrconnect construct: "A is true because B is true and B is true because A is true and because A and B are true therefore C is true....." And if you ever stop them to show that A or B or C is true, you just get the shell game of this interconnected, tight construct. And when they PROVE they have not one Scripture that states any of this.... and that they have to spin 180 degrees a LOT, a LOT of Scriptures that say exactly the opposite, they don't seem to care (these folks who shout about Sola Scriptura and that Catholic Scholasticism is wrong because it uses logical constructs).



So.... Andrew.... you started this thread. What have you learned?




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[MennoSota]

It's a horrible thought to think that my belief that I have faith may just be wishful thinking because I might have been created solely to burn in hell for all eternity and no matter what I do or how hard I pray chances are I am going to fry, in the end the Elect are just a roll of the dice and chance... heresy imo.

It's a horrible thought that humans refuse to accept God's word when God tells them that "no one seeks after God, not even one." It's a horrible thought that humans keep telling themselves that they would choose God if they were given the chance to willfully choose. It's a horrible thought that humans refuse to accept that unless God chooses to save humans who are in full out rebellion against Him, those humans will not EVER save themselves by conjuring up their own faith.
Andrew, even now you are trying to desperately work an angle by which you are your own savior. You prove it in the very words which I have quoted.
God does NOT save you by your merit. It is a horrible thought that you conceive of faith as a conjured thing coming from the will of man.

 

[MennoSota]

I put Josiah on ignore precisely because he provides no biblical merit and just whines about a straw man of his own imagination. Any who follow his strawman thinking follow a foolish teaching.

 

[Josiah]

I put Josiah on ignore

You keep promising that but then you keep responding to my posts proving you don't do it.

precisely because he provides no biblical merit

Odd apologetics you have.... you demand that I give biblical support for TULIP? I give none for EXACTLY THE SAME reason you don't. There is none.


But yes, I and many others here HAVE given ABUNDANT, verbatim support denouncing the two aspects of TULIP you've parroted so far: That Christ died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few (while you have yet to find even one verse that states your position) and have noted that that faith IS relevant to Justification and that you have nothing that shows God predestines ALL to their final destination.




.

 

[Andrew]

It's a horrible thought that humans refuse to accept God's word when God tells them that "no one seeks after God, not even one." It's a horrible thought that humans keep telling themselves that they would choose God if they were given the chance to willfully choose. It's a horrible thought that humans refuse to accept that unless God chooses to save humans who are in full out rebellion against Him, those humans will not EVER save themselves by conjuring up their own faith.
Andrew, even now you are trying to desperately work an angle by which you are your own savior. You prove it in the very words which I have quoted.
God does NOT save you by your merit. It is a horrible thought that you conceive of faith as a conjured thing coming from the will of man.

No, you don't believe that God actively searches the hearts of men, you believe that he pre programmed some men to follow him but most to go to hell.
You don't believe in a reaction or response to Gods calling, you believe that God has already saved his few from all eternity and so I wonder why he even made an earth at all and not just create heaven and a hell from all eternity to send his pre programmed souls to.
I believe God loves the humble and the meek and teaches goodwill and love to all peoples. You get too involved with the mind of God and you think you have him figured out, you are gravely mistaken my friend, Menno, what does 'Mystery' refer to in the Bible?

 

[MennoSota]

No, you don't believe that God actively searches the hearts of men, you believe that he pre programmed some men to follow him but most to go to hell.
You don't believe in a reaction or response to Gods calling, you believe that God has already saved his few from all eternity and so I wonder why he even made an earth at all and not just create heaven and a hell from all eternity to send his pre programmed souls to.
I believe God loves the humble and the meek and teaches goodwill and love to all peoples. You get too involved with the mind of God and you think you have him figured out, you are gravely mistaken my friend, Menno, what does 'Mystery' refer to in the Bible?

No. There is no "pre-programming."
There is corrupted programming because of man's sin. God DID NOT break covenant with man. Man broke covenant with God. Man rebelled against God. It's all mans fault that they are cursed to hell.
Why do you blame God for ordaining that humans should procreate, even though man was in outright rebellion toward God? Do you demand that God should never have allowed corrupt humanity to procreate? Do you hate Him because all these offspring are hell bound unless God intervenes and redeems? Do you think you are wiser than God?
Drew, your words speak of God as a tyrant for allowing cursed humanity to procreate. You blame God.
But, do you even see what you are doing, or will you try to excuse your claim?
I notice you just ignore John 6 and 10.

 

[Andrew]

No. There is no "pre-programming."
There is corrupted programming because of man's sin. God DID NOT break covenant with man. Man broke covenant with God. Man rebelled against God. It's all mans fault that they are cursed to hell.
Why do you blame God for ordaining that humans should procreate, even though man was in outright rebellion toward God? Do you demand that God should never have allowed corrupt humanity to procreate? Do you hate Him because all these offspring are hell bound unless God intervenes and redeems? Do you think you are wiser than God?
Drew, your words speak of God as a tyrant for allowing cursed humanity to procreate. You blame God.
But, do you even see what you are doing, or will you try to excuse your claim?
I notice you just ignore John 6 and 10.

Im just trying to grasp your definition of "Predestination", it seems to be all over the place. I like the sheep and the goat metaphor, the believer and the rejector, that's good enough for me, why do you turn it into something difficult and complicated?
John promotes that God chooses his people, I believe that, I don't believe that he chose long ago what individuals are going to hell other than the goats/those who reject the Messiah and those who will refuse to believe on him.
Let God be the judge of that, he knows his sheep but we don't know, so just leave it and believe on the Lord and thou shalt be saved -just as the Bible says

 

[Josiah]

Im just trying to grasp your definition of "Predestination", it seems to be all over the place.

... the word has one meaning: "To cause, to make happen." Efforts of some Calvinists to say "God causes most to go to hell but He doesn't cause that" is just back-peddling at best and more likely, well, you know.

Here's the thing: With most of TULIP, Calvinists have CORRECTLY rejected it long ago. Some are honest enough to just say that (as is the case with every Calvinists personally known to me) OR they just give words the opposite meaning of what they are, change the teaching 180 degrees or at least back WAY off from what the dogma actually is. And that's why I keep saying, don't make the mistake of assuming Calvinists actually believe this TULIP stuff.

I don't believe that he chose long ago what individuals are going to hell

1. The whole point of th4 "U" is that God PREDESTINES ("to cause, to make happen, to be solely responsible for") the final destination of ALL people, unconditionally (regardless of faith). Predestination applies to ALL, to EVERYONE. Thus, they cannot escape their own dogma, it means that God actively CAUSES most people to go to hell, He is the CAUSE, the one solely responsible. Now, TO THEIR CREDIT, you'll find very few Calvinists who actually beleive that - and so the "U" gets entirely redefined (usually to agree with Lutheranism, Anglicanism and officially Catholicism) or simply rejected as "hyper-Calvinism" but some play word games where "in" means out and "up" means down and "all" means "only a few" (Sound like medieval Catholic scholasticism? Yeah, it does to me. too).


2. As is typically the case, Calvinism STARTS with a truth. But it just won't leave well enough alone.... it just won't stick with what God says..... it FORCES it to what it itself alone feels is the ultimate 'logical' EXTREME - with NOTHING from God that says that (they always prove that point very well) and usually in direct, verbatim contradiction of what God says. Yes.... Calvinism is right about "positive" Election, predestination of the saved. But TULIP is horribly wrong about those who aren't saved. Calvinism is right that Jesus died for the elect, but it is horribly wrong in that He died ONLY for them. And so on.

so just leave it and believe on the Lord and thou shalt be saved -just as the Bible says

.... you sound Lutheran, lol

And there is GREAT comfort and assurance in believing God.

 

[MennoSota]

Im just trying to grasp your definition of "Predestination", it seems to be all over the place. I like the sheep and the goat metaphor, the believer and the rejector, that's good enough for me, why do you turn it into something difficult and complicated?
John promotes that God chooses his people, I believe that, I don't believe that he chose long ago what individuals are going to hell other than the goats/those who reject the Messiah and those who will refuse to believe on him.
Let God be the judge of that, he knows his sheep but we don't know, so just leave it and believe on the Lord and thou shalt be saved -just as the Bible says

Simple
God has chosen whom he will reconcile to himself. That is predestination.
What does that mean for all whom God has not chosen to reconcile to himself, Andrew? Can all those whom God does not choose to reconcile somehow choose to have faith anyway? What does the Bible say? Will those who are in rebellion to God, simply choose to put down their weapons and surrender with no prompting from God?
Predestination is not complicated. Humans imagining they have goodness in them that will cause them to choose God is what is complicated. It's complicated because it is utterly false and yet...even Christians harbor in their hearts the notion that they are special for having chosen God. Even you are trying to make that claim. You desperately want to pat yourself on the back for your choice. You don't actually want to accept that there was literally nothing in you that chose God. You don't want to accept that ALL your righteousness is as filthy rags. Somehow you harbor thoughts of goodness about yourself, even though God tells you there is none righteous.
Drew, accept that you are utterly dependent upon God and God only.

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah, failing to even look at scripture, even though atpollard fully provided scripture. Best to let Josiah run down his own rabbit hole.

 

[Josiah]

God has chosen whom he will reconcile to himself. That is predestination.

The "U" is that God predestined ALL people.
This is how it is distinctive of all other Christians and of orthodox, historic, biblical Christianity.
God CAUSES all to end up there they do: most to hell, some to heaven.

Now, MennoSota, if you want to repudiate the "U" of TULIP (as every Calvinist I personally know) - Good.
But you TRYING to say "Actually God causes all to end up where they do but not most" then that's just goofy.

You desperately want to pat yourself on the back for your choice. You don't actually want to accept that there was literally nothing in you that chose God.

Ah, classic Calvinism...... 'THERE CAN BE ONLY TWO POSITIONS: RADICAL CALVINISM OR RADICAL ARMINIANISM..... IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ONE. YOU MUST BE THE OTHER.' It's illogical, it's unhistorical, it's silly.

No one in this whole thread has remotely suggested that anyone chooses God or that anyone gives faith to himself. But therefore, that does NOT mandate that ERGO Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few (in spite of the Bible saying exactly the opposite) and it doesn't mean that ERGO God causes ALL people to go to heaven or hell. Your whole argument is simply illogical and silly, and predicated on the FALSE assumption that the onlyt positions are two radical, unbiblical positions invented by a tiny few men in the late 16th Century.

You don't want to accept that ALL your righteousness is as filthy rags. Somehow you harbor thoughts of goodness about yourself, even though God tells you there is none righteous.

Here's yet another of your silly apologetics. If you can FALSELY accuse people of something they NEVER REMOTELY SAID (which is why you always REFUSE to quote them), then you MUST be right in your view. It's absurd. It's illogical. It's silly.

No one here is questioning predestination of the saved.... no one here is questioning God's unmerited/unearned/unrequested mercy and grace.... no one here is questioning that faith is purely a divine gift, the free gift of God. Where you err is your silly assumption that ERGO Jesus died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few (in spite of Scripture verbatim stating the exact opposite of that) and that ERGO God causes most people to go to hell. I realize in your brain, you THINK there is some "logic" to your construct (it's actually very illogical) but it is NOWHERE taught in Scripture (as you keep proving so well) and often runs head on, flat out, verbatim, directly contradicting MANY Scriptures that state exactly the opposite.





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[Josiah]

Josiah, failing to even look at scripture, even though atpollard fully provided scripture.

You've posted twice now that I'm on your ignore list.......


Yes, our friend quoted some Scriptures. It's just that as we all know, none of them said anything that TULIP does. Nice verses, I agree. They just have noting in support of TULIP, as is quite obvious.