Calvinism Vs Arminian

[MennoSota]

Your focus should not be on the Elect, your focus should be on preaching the gospel to the world. God's focus is on the Elect. God does not preach the gospel to the world.

My focus is on what God teaches, not some man-made philosophy of free-will.
Our task is to preach reconciliation to rebels. God's task is to reconcile those whom He wills.
Preach, "Be reconciled to God. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved."
Those rebels who are convicted to the core will reconcile and believe. Those who aren't convicted will scoff at the notion that they are in danger and need saving. Their blindness is obvious.

 

[Andrew]

My focus is on what God teaches, not some man-made philosophy of free-will.
Our task is to preach reconciliation to rebels. God's task is to reconcile those whom He wills.
Preach, "Be reconciled to God. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved."
Those rebels who are convicted to the core will reconcile and believe. Those who aren't convicted will scoff at the notion that they are in danger and need saving. Their blindness is obvious.

I disagree. 'All' (not "Those") rebels are in need of salvation, all humanity is in need of Salvation and the gate is open to all as of this moment until the great day of judgment.

I was going to look where I should insert this video clip explaining 'hyper calvinism' to the layman so I'll just put it here, I'm hardly familiar with Calvinism but this video is actually somewhat recommended by Calvinists against hyper calvinism (from what I get out of the comments at least)
It's from a Lutheran Pastor (with a rad hair due ) but it gets into late "degrees" of Calvinism into Hyper Calvinism and that is from the point of Eternal Justification unto common grace (no grace for the non elect)... and so on ..(yikes) ...all news to me anyway... interesting video
https://youtu.be/5M2Ppjk2PwY

 

[MennoSota]

I disagree. 'All' (not "Those") rebels are in need of salvation, all humanity is in need of Salvation and the gate is open to all as of this moment until the great day of judgment.

I was going to look where I should insert this video clip explaining 'hyper calvinism' to the layman so I'll just put it here, I'm hardly familiar with Calvinism but this video is actually somewhat recommended by Calvinists against hyper calvinism (from what I get out of the comments at least)
It's from a Lutheran Pastor (with a rad hair due ) but it gets into late "degrees" of Calvinism into Hyper Calvinism and that is from the point of Eternal Justification unto common grace (no grace for the non elect)... and so on ..(yikes) ...all news to me anyway... interesting video
https://youtu.be/5M2Ppjk2PwY

Of course we all are rebels. But God doesn't save all rebels...unless you're a universalist.
As for the hyper-calvinism stuff. I consider it to be a deflection so you and others don't have to actually read scripture and think.

 

[Andrew]

Of course we all are rebels. But God doesn't save all rebels...unless you're a universalist.
As for the hyper-calvinism stuff. I consider it to be a deflection so you and others don't have to actually read scripture and think.

No I believe the Body of Christ 'have' read and has and will continue to proclaim the scripture through and through, many more to come no doubt, for no man should be left in the dark of this gospel... no stone is left unturned -and the gospel -God willingly! -shall be spoken throughout the world up until that last day of Judgment.
God has always loved his creation, he has never 'pre-loved just an elect few', something you fail to admit. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[MennoSota]

No I believe the Body of Christ 'have' read and has and will continue to proclaim the scripture through and through, many more to come no doubt, for no man should be left in the dark of this gospel... no stone is left unturned -and the gospel -God willingly! -shall be spoken throughout the world up until that last day of Judgment.
God has always loved his creation, he has never 'pre-loved just a elect few', something you fail to admit. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again, you seem to misunderstand.
Let me ask this. Does God love sin? Does God love sinners?
The answer is no and no.
God loves his Son...who died for sinners.
The world, in John 3:16 is the elect for whom Jesus died.
Unless Christ has exchanged His life for ours, God cannot love us for God does not love sin.

 

[Josiah]

My focus is on what God teaches

Then quote the following:

"Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
"God causes most to go to Hell."
"God's grace is irresistable."
"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved."

not some man-made philosophy

... Then ignore the speculations of those few latter-day Calvinists, coming up with philosophies no one before the 16th Century had yet invented.




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[MennoSota]

Jesus died for only the elect and no others."

If he died for all, then all are saved. Simple as that.

"God causes most to go to Hell."

Sinners cause most to go to hell. God causes no one to go to hell.
"The wages of sin is death."

"God's grace is irresistable."

Human will is not greater than God's will. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved."

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

It is interesting to see so many plant their feet into quicksand and think they stand on solid ground. God's word confirms my faith.

 

[Arsenios]

Fore-ordained and predestined are the same thing.

From your perspective as a fallen person, you are correct as you are seeing matters from God's Perspective...

But your error is that you do NOT see from God's Perspective...

You have self-determination in this life, and God foreknows all you will self-determine to do in this life...

The book of Life is already written.

Only God knows this Book - You do not...

So your commentary is without basis...

Those on the list will be saved because God has fore-ordained (predestined) it to be so.
This is God's Sovereign right, not ours.

This you are presuming in your talking about God's foreknowledge...
You are a fallen human being...
You cannot speak for God in this...
You cannot presume to speak for God...

God in Scripture tells us that those whom God fore-knew, these He Called...
And that many are called, but few are chosen...
The Called get Justified...
The Justified get Glorified...

To be fore-ordained is to be predestined [as your thoughts insist]...
God said: "My Thoughts are NOT your thoughts."
You cannot speak for God here...
Your free will does not impinge Divine Sovereignty...

Except in your thoughts...

This Faith of Christ is above all a Mystery...
It is NOT subject to human logic...
Human logic is tinker-toys for toddlers...
Purification of the Heart is everything...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

From your perspective as a fallen person, you are correct as you are seeing matters from God's Perspective...

But your error is that you do NOT see from God's Perspective...

You have self-determination in this life, and God foreknows all you will self-determine to do in this life...



Only God knows this Book - You do not...

So your commentary is without basis...



This you are presuming in your talking about God's foreknowledge...
You are a fallen human being...
You cannot speak for God in this...
You cannot presume to speak for God...

God in Scripture tells us that those whom God fore-knew, these He Called...
And that many are called, but few are chosen...
The Called get Justified...
The Justified get Glorified...

To be fore-ordained is to be predestined [as your thoughts insist]...
God said: "My Thoughts are NOT your thoughts."
You cannot speak for God here...
Your free will does not impinge Divine Sovereignty...

Except in your thoughts...

This Faith of Christ is above all a Mystery...
It is NOT subject to human logic...
Human logic is tinker-toys for toddlers...
Purification of the Heart is everything...


Arsenios

God's perspective?
God has known exactly everything...always. Predestined means exactly that. God has always seen all things as though they were happening. God exists outside of time, therefore time is not a factor for God.

 

[Arsenios]

Let me ask this. Does God love sin?
Does God love sinners?
The answer is no and no.

The answer is no and yes...

Indeed He so loves sinners that He sent His Only Begotten Son that they should have Life in Him...

He even said: "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance..."

God loves his Son...who died for sinners.

Why would He DO that if He hates sinners?

The world, in John 3:16 is the elect for whom Jesus died.

The word for World is Kosmos/Cosmos...

It really means "Creation"...

The whole of creation...

Unless Christ has exchanged His life for ours, God cannot love us for God does not love sin.

I thank God then that He loves sinners,
because if not, I am lost...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The answer is no and yes...

Indeed He so loves sinners that He sent His Only Begotten Son that they should have Life in Him...

He even said: "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance..."



Why would He DO that if He hates sinners?



The word for World is Kosmos/Cosmos...

It really means "Creation"...

The whole of creation...



I thank God then that He loves sinners,
because if not, I am lost...


Arsenios

God loves His Son and His Son atoned for those whom the Father gave him. Therefore those who have their sins atoned are loved by God.
Does all humanity have its sins atoned for by Jesus?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isn't hypercalvinism people taking Calvinism to its logic demanded conclusions without recourse to "mystery" or "enigma" or "paradox".

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God’s purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God’s mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

The implied fate of those who are not chosen is that they will be left without salvation or any means of being saved because it is allegedly fundamentally impossible for them to believe the gospel to the saving of their souls. As [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] often says "they are dead" and "dead men don't hear the gospel and respond to it".

Being "dead in trespasses and sins" they cannot respond to preaching, tracts, a bible, or any other means of grace. Dead men (and women) do nothing we've been told.

Thus it appears that the dead will be left for dead and their fate is eternal death whatever that may be. The Lord, Jesus Christ, spoke of eternal punishment. One presumes that is what awaits the dead in sins.

Call it double predestination as some do or ignore it nevertheless the direction of logic is from death in sins to eternal punishment and it is part of "God's eternal decree" evidently; unless mystery, enigma, or paradox is invoked to raise a barrier of smoke that hides the sad predestined eternal punishment of the dead in sins.

Nice cop-out, MC. The Bible actually has passages that affirm what Calvin presented and which I present.
What you attempt to do is claim that God has been too obscure for us to understand his means of salvation. Unfortunately for you, we have the Bible and God is not unclear in regards to His election, choosing and predestination.
What God NEVER declares is man's free-will as the means of salvation.

It is not I that called you a hypercalvinist - that is the work that others undertook for reasons of their own - My work is to observe what hypercalvinism is and also to observe what you've told us all.

You keep saying that sinners are "dead in trespasses and sins" which is, as you say, a quote from holy scripture and with which I am in full agreement.

Where you differ from me is in interpreting what dead in trespasses and sins means and what affects it has on repentance and good works.

The words do not mean that such people no life whatever, nor that they do not breathe, walk, and perform actions. Nor can it mean that they had no living intellect or mental powers, which would not have been true. Nor does it settle any question as to their abilities or powers while in that state. It simply affirms a fact - that in relation to life in communion with God they were, in consequence of sin, like the dead.

 

[MennoSota]

It is not I that called you a hypercalvinist - that is the work that others undertook for reasons of their own - My work is to observe what hypercalvinism is and also to observe what you've told us all.

You keep saying that sinners are "dead in trespasses and sins" which is, as you say, a quote from holy scripture and with which I am in full agreement.

Where you differ from me is in interpreting what dead in trespasses and sins means and what affects it has on repentance and good works.

The words do not mean that such people no life whatever, nor that they do not breathe, walk, and perform actions. Nor can it mean that they had no living intellect or mental powers, which would not have been true. Nor does it settle any question as to their abilities or powers while in that state. It simply affirms a fact - that in relation to life in communion with God they were, in consequence of sin, like the dead.

I have expressed it as spiritually dead on multiple occasions. It is odd that you still have deaf ears on the subject.

 

[Josiah]

Then it's EASY! Just quote the following in the Bible....

"Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
"God causes most to go to Hell."
"God's grace is irresistable."
"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved."


.... and ignore the man-made philosophies of some tiny group of extreme Calvinists in the late 16th Century, their new inventions, their own "answers" to their own "questions."


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If he died for all, then all are saved. Simple as that.

Ah.

You prove again you have NOTHING.
Not one verse that remotely says what TULIP does.


Just the new philosophies of a tiny number of extreme Calvinists in the late 16th Century..... they appointing themselves to ask themselves questions and appointing themselves to "answer" them and demanding God agree with them - even if it flat-out, verbatim, contradicts many Scriptures.


I think you've made that abundantly obvious.

God's word confirms my faith.

... then why the perpetual, constant refusal to quote the verses that do? Why?

Just quote the following:

"Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
"God causes most to go to Hell."
"God's grace is irresistable."
"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved."

And stop the parroting the new philosophies of a tiny number of extreme Calvinists in the late 16th Century..... they appointing themselves to ask themselves questions and appointing themselves to "answer" them and demanding God agree with them - even if it flat-out, verbatim, contradicts many Scriptures.

Start quoting Scripture saying what you do.... stop parroting the new invented philosophies of a tiny sub-set of Calvinists, invented in the late 16th Century.





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[MennoSota]

Verses have been shared. Josiah seems incapable of comprehending them. Perhaps John 6 is unclear to Josiah. Perhaps Romans 3, 8 and 9 are too vague. Perhaps Ephesians 1 and 2 are too complicated for some to understand.
Nothing more can be done for those whose ears are plugged and eyes are closed.

 

[Josiah]

Perhaps John 6 is unclear to Josiah. Perhaps Romans 3, 8 and 9 are too vague. Perhaps Ephesians 1 and 2 are too complicated for some to understand.

Simple. Easy.

Just quote any of them saying what TULIP does....

Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
"God causes most to go to Hell."
"God's grace is irresistible."
"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved no matter what."


.... and ignore the man-made philosophies of some tiny group of extreme Calvinists in the late 16th Century, their new inventions, their own "answers" to their own "questions." Stop asking questions (it substantiates NOTHING, it's not apologetics), stop echoing man-made philosophies, start quoting where Scripture says what you do.




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[atpollard]

“Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
John 10:14-15

"God causes most to go to Hell."
Matthew 7:13-23

"God's grace is irresistible."
John 6:44-45

"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved no matter what."
John 10:26-30

 

[Josiah]

“Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
John 10:14-15

"God causes most to go to Hell."
Matthew 7:13-23

"God's grace is irresistible."
John 6:44-45

"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved no matter what."
John 10:26-30

Thus you powerfully prove my point.


IF anyone actually reads the verses, they see how the dogmas of TULIP are not taught in Scripture. The entire point of the dogma is entirely missing.

Thus, MennoSota's contradiction. He STRESSES (constantly) that we are to condemn and repudiate any new dogma that is not stated in Scripture ... but on just 4 points, he does a total "180" and condemns what he calls "proof texting" and insists a dogma MUST be correct if it does not contradict another new dogma and "makes sense" to HIM. Then he shouts we are to repudiate all Tradition and philosophy and teachings of a denomination.... but on just 4 points, does a complete "180" and insists on verbatim parroting the new inventions, the unique tradition, the philosophy of a tiny number of latter-day extreme Calvinists.

Yeah, what we have here is perhaps the worse case of eisegesis ever (IMO, much worse than Catholicism with Purgatory or Transubstantiation) and of a new tradition simply being inter-dependent . "A must right because B is" If you ask for substantiation for "B" all you get is "A is right so B must be" and if you ask if A is right, all you get is "Well B is right so A must be." Amazingly illogical. And as proven again and again, with nothing in Scripture that teaches it.




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[Andrew]

“Jesus died for only the elect and no others."
John 10:14-15

"God causes most to go to Hell."
Matthew 7:13-23

"God's grace is irresistible."
John 6:44-45

"One who has GENUINE faith at any point in their life will be saved no matter what."
John 10:26-30

just plugging in the entire verses for others to read

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:14-15

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:13-23

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:44-45

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:26-30

 

[Andrew]

This is where me and Menno have argued before, well he argued with me but I thought we might agree, God separates his Sheep from Goats, he protects his sheep. I hope now we may have some common grounds on to how we define Gods Elect, are the sheep atoned for? Most definitely.
Are the goats believers/atoned for? No they are rejectors.
Is there a difference? You bet.
This has been common sense since the beginning, what changed centuries later? The Mystery of God has been dwindled down to the point where the symbology (sheep and goats) has been overruled with the pre Elect versus the pre damned, just sit and look pretty and hope that Christ may be (but highly unlikely) your personal savior, just hope he picked you because your chances are slim to none.
I believe God actively searches the hearts of men and that the gate of Salvation is open to all men who repent and believe, Jew or Gentile alike. SINCE he actively searches it is NOT predestined in the suggested crude manner, God of course knew that he would have followers and thus he called them his sheep. If you call to your sheep do you expect a RESPONSE? Yes!
Take out the symbology and replace it with lawyer talk you take out the Mystery IMO