Calvinism Vs Arminian

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If you are having difficulty with righteous judment.

Both conspiricacy to commit and commit murder are blasphemy of the Rusch Hakodosh.

Do u understand?

When our Reddemer spoke of loving an enemy I sugest looking at ur own household of wolves.
The binyamins of hatred found at the entrance of a cave.
If only the wolf with eyes of gold were to realize that power corrupts.
No, that western seat was established for another.
The deaf wolf had keen eyes for a moment while the jackals howled.

Yet the youngsters here are hard of hearing.
I assert that if I walk up to a stranger and say "Jesus Christ atoned for your sins 2000 years ago" that I am not lying.
Christ atonement is for all sinners, the problem is with them all in general, how they (even non believers) believe that their sense of good and evil is right and that they believe they are goodly people... it doesn't matter if you are the Pope you are still as vile as they come, all are in need of salvation and all sin is atoned but leave it to Gods mercy that he gather his lost sheep and leave not one behind, the goats will have to answer at the mercy seat of God but I do pray for their conversion.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
....and since odds are He didn't atone for YOUR sins, you are in a heap of trouble (and uncertainty). And God give no record of the short list for whom Christ died (but you probably aren't on it). According to hyper-Calvinisms and this horrible invented dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists in the late 16th Century.
Do you play the odds, Josiah, or do you praise God for His grace, which He chose to extend to you?
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead,*how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?*But if there is no resurrection of the dead,*then not even Christ has been raised.*And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that*he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
*
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Of course I don't know whom God has elected. This is why we share the gospel with all. My lack of knowledge does not negate the fact that God only forgiven those for whom Jesus atonement is effective. Only those for whom Jesus atonement is effective will have faith.
We both believe that the devil and his angels and all who form or worship the body of the beast will not escape eternal destruction.
I say we don't know but by their fruit who they are so this is why we pray for all and approach them with the gospel, would you agree?
Or do we only pray to the elect?
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
I assert that if I walk up to a stranger and say "Jesus Christ atoned for your sins 2000 years ago" that I am not lying.
Christ atonement is for all sinners, the problem is with them all in general, how they (even non believers) believe that their sense of good and evil is right and that they believe they are goodly people... it doesn't matter if you are the Pope you are still as vile as they come, all are in need of salvation and all sin is atoned but leave it to Gods mercy that he gather his lost sheep and leave not one behind, the goats will have to answer at the mercy seat of God but I do pray for their conversion.
You're not telling the truth...if God doesn't choose to redeem them.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
We both believe that the devil and his angels and all who form or worship the body of the beast will not escape eternal destruction.
I say we don't know but by their fruit who they are so this is why we pray for all and approach them with the gospel, would you agree?
Or do we only pray to the elect?
We pray to God who holds the keys to life or death.
The elect will only worship God, who atoned for their sins.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We pray to God who holds the keys to life or death.


How you LOVE the shell game... ANYTHING to change the subject, to get all attention OFF what you claim to be dogmatically true.

Again, NOTHING you say has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with substantiating the dogma invented in the late 16th Century by a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the FEW (and thus probably not you).
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I assert that if I walk up to a stranger and say "Jesus Christ atoned for your sins 2000 years ago" that I am not lying.

According to "Limited Atonement" dogma of the hyper Calvinists, you probably are. After all, they claim, Christ died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the few, the elect, the church, the minority - and thus likely not them.... or you... or me...

By the new, radical, dogma invited by a FEW latter-day, hyper-Calvinists and their "Christ died for ONLY a few" dogma, you would probably be lying. To yourself and everyone else.





.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You're not telling the truth...if God doesn't choose to redeem them.
but how would I know if God chooses them at all, or if I am chosen?
Josiah made a big point of this and he is right, Calvinists cannot say that they know who is elect and non elect... even for themselves, but 'knowing' is something God sets in your heart and is something you can pronounce and confess out loud.
My 1rst grade teacher used to tell us "God I wish I could just point a stick at your heads and make you know" ...
With Faith I believe we DO know when we are saved, you seem to question even yourself ...and I know you don't Menno, but as Josiah pointed out, you cannot say that you can tell the difference in people if they are for certain elect or not (by fruits only for us humans)... so again whats the point of projecting such radical ideas that can do absolutely nothing to help God out in his plan of Salvation if you don't have faith enough to know yourself if you are saved or not?
 
Last edited:

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
but how would I know if God chooses them at all, or if I am chosen?
Josiah made this a big point of this and he is right, Calvinists cannot say that they know who is elect and non elect... even for themselves, but 'knowing' is something God sets in your heart and is something you can pronounce and confess out loud.
My 1rst grade teacher used to tell us "God I wish I could just point a stick at your heads and make you know" ...
With Faith I believe we DO know when we are saved, you seem to question even yourself ...and I know you don't Menno, but as Josiah pointed out, you cannot say that you can tell the difference in people if they are elect or not... so again whats the point of projecting such radical ideas that can do absolutely nothing to help God out in his plan of Salvation if you don't have faith enough to know yourself of you are saved or not?

If one is not elect, they don't receive the gift of faith.

But that's another issue for another day and thread. Hyper-Calvinists insists they are not saved because Chrsit didn't die for them. A position without a single verse to support it and in direct, flat-out, verbatim, undeniable contradiction of MANY Scriptures.

If you have faith in Christ, you do NOT need to be terrorized for all your life wondering if that faith actually is embracing something THERE for you or if it's entirely in vain because nothing is being offered, all there is for YOU is pure emptiness.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If one is not elect, they don't receive the gift of faith.

Im just saying that we can only determine another's faith based on their fruits as believing members ourselves, God will see all whom his Angels has labeled as his children in their foreheads, we cannot see that... it's impossible.
So I believe that God has ordained his chosen elect to go and preach the gospel to all the world to subject the non believers to his word regardless of our territory (in the elect) of judging the church in itself... Im not quick to shout anathema and I hope I never have to, I'm just curious why it's such a big deal to emphasis on the elect when it's entirely up to God?
What denomination outside of Calvinism is in need of correction? All, according to Calvinism... ;)
Like I said, all denominations fall short of the glorious perfected word of God.
All are close but no cigar.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
How you LOVE the shell game... ANYTHING to change the subject, to get all attention OFF what you claim to be dogmatically true.

Again, NOTHING you say has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with substantiating the dogma invented in the late 16th Century by a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the FEW (and thus probably not you).
Josiah, you miss the forest because you are stuck on the trees. All 5 tenets of Reformed theology fit together as one. When you attempt to remove one you end up in contradiction, which is what you end up doing.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
but how would I know if God chooses them at all, or if I am chosen?
Josiah made a big point of this and he is right, Calvinists cannot say that they know who is elect and non elect... even for themselves, but 'knowing' is something God sets in your heart and is something you can pronounce and confess out loud.
My 1rst grade teacher used to tell us "God I wish I could just point a stick at your heads and make you know" ...
With Faith I believe we DO know when we are saved, you seem to question even yourself ...and I know you don't Menno, but as Josiah pointed out, you cannot say that you can tell the difference in people if they are for certain elect or not (by fruits only for us humans)... so again whats the point of projecting such radical ideas that can do absolutely nothing to help God out in his plan of Salvation if you don't have faith enough to know yourself if you are saved or not?
Faith. Faith that God is true to His word. Those who need to know end up living under the law. We live by faith.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Faith. Faith that God is true to His word. Those who need to know end up living under the law. We live by faith.
Q: What sounds better

A: Should I pray for the non elect to receive Faith?

B: Should I pray for the non believer to receive Faith?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Josiah, you miss the forest because you are stuck on the trees. All 5 tenets of Reformed theology fit together as one. When you attempt to remove one you end up in contradiction, which is what you end up doing.


Perhaps because the whole house of cards is wrong... If one part is wrong, by your own omission, it's wrong.

Your apologetic, "the L MUST be right because the rest of it is" is absurd and illogical. And the it's not MY contradiction but TULIP's.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Q: What sounds better

A: Should I pray for the non elect to receive Faith?

B: Should I pray for the non believer to receive Faith?
Who cares which one sounds better? Pray that all might be elect, but don't let a person's rejection of God discourage you if they don't respond in faith.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps because the whole house of cards is wrong... If one part is wrong, by your own omission, it's wrong.

Your apologetic, "the L MUST be right because the rest of it is" is absurd and illogical. And the it's not MY contradiction but TULIP's.
You sound like an Arminian. Are you now really saying that none of the tenets of Reformed faith are correct?
Josiah, here's a shocker...your 16th century leader isn't exactly correct. Calvin had a more accurate understanding of soteriology than Luther. Luther got justification by faith correct, but he didn't grasp the fullness of God's means of salvation. He never quite got his feet out of the church of Rome.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,208
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Total depravity = Corrupt in our nature, we can never attain holiness by our own merit.

Unconditional election = God chooses without requiring human merit.

Limited atonement = Particular atonement for the unconditionally elect--God saves all for whom He chose to die.

Irresistible grace = God's election is sure. Humans cannot reject God when He chooses to save.

Perseverance of the saints = God gives the gift of faith to the elect so that they can not not believe. The elect will endure in faith to the end.

These are very biblical truths. People who reject them, are people who are repelled by the thought of God being absolutely in control of His creation.

  • Total depravity, Human nature is stricken, this is true, yet it is not erased, it is inclined to sin but it is not nothing but sinfulness, the T of TULIP is wrong. Had it been a L for Limited ability then it would be right.
  • Unconditional election, Election is by God's grace and will yet God gives grace to all and desires all to be saved so evidently election from God's perspective is not limited to "the saved" but extends to all while from a human perspective election is voluntary because it corresponds to hearing, receiving, and accepting the gospel. Had this been O for Open election then it would be right because the gospel call is open to all.
  • Limited atonement, Atonement is sufficient for all yet applies to those who believe because they believe and act upon their beliefs. The atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is not limited, as if it were of finite value or finite intent, God desire all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That is the teaching of holy scripture. Had it been V for Vicarious atonement then it would be right because Christ died on behalf (vicariously) of the faithful.
  • Irresistible grace, and ... Grace is resistible and always has been. Jesus upbraided some among the Jewish people for always resisting the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit who gives grace. Had it been E for Enriching grace or Enabling grace then it would be right because God gives grace to enrich all who receive his grace and especially to enrich the faithful with every gift that they need for eternal life.
  • Perseverance of the saints. Those saints who do persevere will be saved and the people who hear, believe, and then abandon the faith will not be saved. There is no guarantee that believers will without fail persevere until the end. The Lord, in Revelation, praises those who persevere and warns those who do not. Had it been S for Saves then it would be right because God saves his people from their sins and God gives grace to the faithful to enable them to persevere unto salvation. That is the good news of the gospel, that Christ died for the faithful who are saved by his life and his death and especially by his resurrection all of which are vicarious graces given to the faithful in Christ.
In short God LOVES his people. He gave them LOVE so that they would be Saved. He didn't given them a TULIP.
Limited ability required
Open election and
Vicarious atonement together with
Enriching grace so that God's grace finally
Saves the faithful from their sins and the consequences of all sins.
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
  • Total depravity, Human nature is stricken, this is true, yet it is not erased, it is inclined to sin but it is not nothing but sinfulness, the T of TULIP is wrong. Had it been a L for Limited ability then it would be right.
  • Unconditional election, Election is by God's grace and will yet God gives grace to all and desires all to be saved so evidently election from God's perspective is not limited to "the saved" but extends to all while from a human perspective election is voluntary because it corresponds to hearing, receiving, and accepting the gospel. Had this been O for Open election then it would be right because the gospel call is open to all.
  • Limited atonement, Atonement is sufficient for all yet applies to those who believe because they believe and act upon their beliefs. The atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is not limited, as if it were of finite value or finite intent, God desire all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That is the teaching of holy scripture. Had it been V for Vicarious atonement then it would be right because Christ died on behalf (vicariously) of the faithful.
  • Irresistible grace, and Grace is resistible and always has been. Jesus upbraided some among the Jewish people for always resisting the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit who gives grace. Had it been E for Enriching grace then it would be right because God gives grace to enrich all who receive his grace and especially to enrich the faithful with every gift that they need for eternal life.
  • Perseverance of the saints. Those saints who do persevere will be saved and the people tho hear. believe, and then abandon the faith will not be saved. There is no guarantee that believers will without fail persevere until the end. The Lord, in Revelation, praises those who persevere and warns those who do not. Had it been S Saves then it would be right because God gives grace to the faithful to enable them to persevere unto salvation. That is the good news of the gospel, that Christ died for the faithful who are saved by his life and his death and especially by his resurrection all of which are vicarious graces given to the faithful in Christ.
In short God LOVES his people. He gave them LOVE so that they would be Saved. He didn't given them a TULIP.
Limited ability required
Open atonement and
Vicarious atonement together with
Enriching grace so that God's grace finally
Saves the faithful from their sins and the consequences of all sins.
RC Sproul gave a good definition of total depravity.
The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin.

In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.

I like to replace the term*total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is*radix, and it can be translated*root*or*core. The term*radical*has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being. Even the English word*core*actually comes from the Latin word*cor, which means “heart.” That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. In biblical terms, that means it’s from the core or very center of our*existence.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit’s changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in*heaven.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,208
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
RC Sproul gave a good definition of total depravity.

Some folk like R C Sproul's views and some do not. I am pleased that you like his views. They are better than some I have seen and heard.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Josiah said:
MennoSota said:

All 5 tenets of Reformed theology fit together as one. When you attempt to remove one you end up in contradiction



.

Again, NOTHING you say has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with substantiating the dogma invented in the late 16th Century by a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the FEW (and thus probably not you).


Your apologetic, "the L MUST be right because the rest of it is" is absurd and illogical.


And as you yourself admit, the "contradiction" you keep ranting about is not MY contradiction but TULIP's, it's YOURS.



.


Are you now really saying that none of the tenets of Reformed faith are correct?



No. Obviously, I'm disagreeing with your "logic" that if one part of TULIP is correct, ergo ALL of it is correct. How absurd, how illogical.



You have not yet produced even one verse that remotely teaches that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the few , the elect, and no others. Now you admit why you haven't even tried, it's just something you think is "logical."


You have not yet produced anything to prove that the MANY Scriptures that flat-out, boldly, obviously, undeniable contradict your teaching are all wrong. Just your "logic" trumps God's clear words.


All you have is that if it's wrong, that (in your opinion) creates a "contradiction" for yourself. Well, that's YOUR problem, not God's.










.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom