False teachers

[psalms 91]

We can be at peace whatever is going on with our lives.



Is that why he said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven? Is that why Paul knew both abundance and lack? Is it why John was exiled?



He took on our sin and paid the price for us to receive everlasting life. Guaranteed healing in this life isn't part of the deal, as has been discussed in the "for those who have not been healed" thread.



What do we need aside from a place in heaven? If you want to get into a Bethel-esque concept of sozo you'd need to justify why wealth and health are promised over and above a place in heaven unless you want to cherrypick the verse from James that uses the term sozo and expect it to apply universally, especially if you can't explain why it demonstrably doesn't always apply. If we look at the Revelation and the power given to the beast it's clear that even if Christians were financially wealthy it would do them little good if they couldn't buy or sell, so why would God promise us something that was of zero value?

Isn't it better to look at the stance taken by Job who praised God despite being struck, Habakkuk who worshipped God even though everything was going south rapidly, Daniel who would rather go to the lions than stop praying to God, Shadrach Meshach and Abednego who told the king "even if God does not save us we will not worship your image", Stephen who asked God to forgive the people stoning him with his dying breaths, and the like?

It's hardly cherry-picking verses when there are so many of them that show God's people in anything but perfect health and financial prosperity.

By your reasoniing then why were Job and Abraham and David blessed so richly? The very one you point to is also an example of how to come through adversity victorious and in the end God blessed Job even more than he originally had

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yet sometimes it does and I have experienced instant healing and I know others that have as well. I also saw a woman healed of cancer in such a spectacular way that 55 members of her family showed up at church and many were not saved but they knew a miracle when they saw it, she was supposed to die and she was healed and no esxplanation for it other than God

Miracles are supported by medical proof. I suppose that she provided doctor records, tests, etc? She still goes to see her Oncologist?
There is only ONE "miracle" of this sort that I am personally aware of. He still goes to see his doctor for follow-up.

 

[Hammster]

By your reasoniing then why were Job and Abraham and David blessed so richly? The very one you point to is also an example of how to come through adversity victorious and in the end God blessed Job even more than he originally had

Have you actually read their stories?

 

[tango]

By your reasoniing then why were Job and Abraham and David blessed so richly? The very one you point to is also an example of how to come through adversity victorious and in the end God blessed Job even more than he originally had

My reasoning is entirely consistent with these scenarios.

The problem with "God always..." and "God never..." is that they are so universal. If you look around you you'll probably see some Christians who are wealthy and others who are barely getting by. Why is it such a problem to allow God to do different things in the lives of different people? Some may be rich but that doesn't mean everybody must be rich. Some will have successful ministries while others will not. Some will know God more closely through some form of adversity while others may have an apparently comfortable life and not need to rely solely on God.

If we insist that God will always heal, how can God get the glory through the lives of someone like Laura Story and her husband? If we insist that God will always make us financially prosperous, how does God get the glory from people who can barely make ends meet but still worship God and give generously based on what little they have? If God promises an easy life, why did Jesus tell people to "take up (their) cross and follow (him)"? A lifestyle of financial abundance and perfect health hardly seems like taking up a cross.

What of Christians who are imprisoned, tortured, martyred for the sake of their faith? Did the people who faced death as prisoners owning nothing somehow fall short, given that God clearly didn't protect them or restore what was taken from them? Or does it mean God will reward them in heaven? If you had to choose would you take riches on this earth or riches in heaven?

If we are immensely poor we may be tempted to defy God and steal; if we are immensely rich we may trust in our own strength. I'm sure there's a reason for Prov 30:8-9 to have been written.

 

[psalms 91]

My reasoning is entirely consistent with these scenarios.

The problem with "God always..." and "God never..." is that they are so universal. If you look around you you'll probably see some Christians who are wealthy and others who are barely getting by. Why is it such a problem to allow God to do different things in the lives of different people? Some may be rich but that doesn't mean everybody must be rich. Some will have successful ministries while others will not. Some will know God more closely through some form of adversity while others may have an apparently comfortable life and not need to rely solely on God.

If we insist that God will always heal, how can God get the glory through the lives of someone like Laura Story and her husband? If we insist that God will always make us financially prosperous, how does God get the glory from people who can barely make ends meet but still worship God and give generously based on what little they have? If God promises an easy life, why did Jesus tell people to "take up (their) cross and follow (him)"? A lifestyle of financial abundance and perfect health hardly seems like taking up a cross.

What of Christians who are imprisoned, tortured, martyred for the sake of their faith? Did the people who faced death as prisoners owning nothing somehow fall short, given that God clearly didn't protect them or restore what was taken from them? Or does it mean God will reward them in heaven? If you had to choose would you take riches on this earth or riches in heaven?

If we are immensely poor we may be tempted to defy God and steal; if we are immensely rich we may trust in our own strength. I'm sure there's a reason for Prov 30:8-9 to have been written.

I guess it comes down to definitions, I consider the giver that has little to be very rich in many things that perhaps those who are blessed financially more are not blessed in, a calling that suceeds is a blessing, a life that is rich in friends is blessed, and so on. I am not even comfortable but I consider myself rich in opportunities to help people

 

[Alithis]

The current Pope is Francis, what false teaching do you accuse him of propagating?

his office and every thing he has not renounced ..and so ... propagates.

 

[Hammster]

I guess it comes down to definitions, I consider the giver that has little to be very rich in many things that perhaps those who are blessed financially more are not blessed in, a calling that suceeds is a blessing, a life that is rich in friends is blessed, and so on. I am not even comfortable but I consider myself rich in opportunities to help people

So will you renounce those who say that if you have enough faith, you'll be materially wealthy?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet sometimes it does and I have experienced instant healing and I know others that have as well. I also saw a woman healed of cancer in such a spectacular way that 55 members of her family showed up at church and many were not saved but they knew a miracle when they saw it, she was supposed to die and she was healed and no explanation for it other than God

I cannot verify what happened to you or if instant healing happens in your meeting. It might happen and it might not; you've given an anecdote and even if I accept it as what you believe it is not evidence that I can verify. It is a little like the miracles at Lourdes but at Lourdes the miracles are verified by pre-miracle medical evidence and post miracle medical evidence with photographic and x-ray documentation accompanying when applicable. Anecdotes are convincing to some but not to all even the medical evidence from Lourdes does not convince everybody so claims to healing are not what I would call indisputable proof of a teaching or a teacher.

 

[psalms 91]

First, I believe that many are misquoted and maligned either by misunderstanding or a desire to bring someone down, I rthink most of these would agree that not everyone will be blessed to be rich in this life and I also believe that God wants to bless His people IF they are wholeheartedly committed to Him, and place Him and HIs kingdom first. God prospered Israel in order to make others jealous and to want to follow Him and I dont think that has changed. In todays world most are sad and depressed or trying to self medicate with drugs or alcohol and if they can be shown the love of Cjhrist and see that God can free them from this then they are more than willing to follow Jesus, thus why our own struggles are so important for once we get the victory over our own problems then we can go forth and help others and witness how Jesus met us and helped us. I know that you said in another thread about being in AA at one time, you have a testimony about what God has done in your life and can reach those that others cant.

 

[psalms 91]

I cannot verify what happened to you or if instant healing happens in your meeting. It might happen and it might not; you've given an anecdote and even if I accept it as what you believe it is not evidence that I can verify. It is a little like the miracles at Lourdes but at Lourdes the miracles are verified by pre-miracle medical evidence and post miracle medical evidence with photographic and x-ray documentation accompanying when applicable. Anecdotes are convincing to some but not to all even the medical evidence from Lourdes does not convince everybody so claims to healing are not what I would call indisputable proof of a teaching or a teacher.

The fact that I know is what is important to me, I can only testify to it, it is between you and God what you believe or know.

 

[Hammster]

First, I believe that many are misquoted and maligned either by misunderstanding or a desire to bring someone down, I rthink most of these would agree that not everyone will be blessed to be rich in this life and I also believe that God wants to bless His people IF they are wholeheartedly committed to Him, and place Him and HIs kingdom first. God prospered Israel in order to make others jealous and to want to follow Him and I dont think that has changed. In todays world most are sad and depressed or trying to self medicate with drugs or alcohol and if they can be shown the love of Cjhrist and see that God can free them from this then they are more than willing to follow Jesus, thus why our own struggles are so important for once we get the victory over our own problems then we can go forth and help others and witness how Jesus met us and helped us. I know that you said in another thread about being in AA at one time, you have a testimony about what God has done in your life and can reach those that others cant.

There are those who say that you will be materially wealthy if you have enough faith. Would you say that it is false teaching to promote that?

 

[psalms 91]

There are those who say that you will be materially wealthy if you have enough faith. Would you say that it is false teaching to promote that?

Not necessarily I would have to hear the context and what was presented around it. If that is all they say then I would say that it is false

 

[Hammster]

Not necessarily I would have to hear the context and what was presented around it. If that is all they say then I would say that it is false

That's a start.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The fact that I know is what is important to me, I can only testify to it, it is between you and God what you believe or know.

Yes, it is always between the faithful and God what they receive as truth. But if you want to promote a doctrine, such as the doctrine of men like Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar then you'll need more than anecdotes about healing as evidence for the truth of their teaching. For me the holy scriptures testify against a number of their doctrines so I reject them as false teachings because they are contrary to the teaching of Christ.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The fact that I know is what is important to me, I can only testify to it, it is between you and God what you believe or know.

Knowledge and testimony does nothing. Proof does everything. Concrete proof. What proof of healing (in ANY case you are aware of) do you have? Separate of that, we should be skeptical, and so should you.

 

[tango]

I'm going to break with tradition and side will Bill on this one. At least kinda-sorta-side with him.

The thing with a lot of matters of personal testimony is that they are, well, personal. I know what God has done in my life but there's no way I could offer anyone reading this a shred of evidence that I'm not making it all up. For all you readers know I could be a child-eating, goat-sacrificing devil worshipper just flicking through the Bible and putting forward some arguments to see how long I can keep up the charade. Just to avoid any doubt, I'm none of those things, but you only have my word for that

Where healings are concerned some of us will have seen miraculous healings, and yet have no concrete evidence to show to another to prove the fact. But we know what we've seen. As one man Jesus healed said, "I was blind but now I see". He didn't need to know anything else, he knew that this man Jesus gave him his sight. What evidence do we have that it ever happened, aside from a passage in an old book? The issue here is whether we consider that old book to be credible or not. Likewise if someone reports a healing we have to decide whether that person is credible or not, in the absence of evidence.

This is where I have major issues with these so-called "international ministries". They make grand claims of things that happened to Someone Else, Somewhere Else, usually with little to no evidence, and expect it to be believed. It's so totally unlike the lame beggar at the Beautiful Gate where everybody knew him, everybody knew he was lame and everybody could see him jumping and leaping and praising God. Miracles that bring glory to God locally are good, claims of miracles that seem to do little more than attempt to validate a ministry or give extra authority to the latest grand speaker are probably worth regarding with some suspicion.

Where those ministries are concerned, Jesus said we would know them by their fruit. I have never met the likes of Bill Johnson, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar etc and probably never will. I won't get to see the fruit of the lives. But I can see the teachings they make public and follow the Scriptural call to "test all things, hold fast what is good". If their teachings don't align with Scripture (or worse, contradict Scripture) then that invalidates any signs and wonders that might be associated with them. As God told Moses in Deut 13 a prophet who makes correct predictions should still be ignored if he then urges the people to follow other gods. A teacher who performs signs and wonders but does not point to the one true God should be disregarded.

 

[psalms 91]

Knowledge and testimony does nothing. Proof does everything. Concrete proof. What proof of healing (in ANY case you are aware of) do you have? Separate of that, we should be skeptical, and so should you.

OK i will doubt my own healing and that of people I know, right, come on and by the way whatyou say needs no faith it is mans reasoning and of that I am skepitcal

 

[MoreCoffee]

OK i will doubt my own healing and that of people I know, right, come on and by the way whatyou say needs no faith it is mans reasoning and of that I am skepitcal

I don't think anybody needed faith to notice that the man born blind was able to see. Nobody needed faith to notice the red sea part.

 

[psalms 91]

I will gaurantee that someone had faith it would happen before it did, they didnt use mans reasoning

 

[MoreCoffee]

Genesis 1:26-27 (26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Wisdom 2:23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.

One ought not to shame the image of God in human beings. Instead one ought to always recognise the goodness of God even in men and women who are weak or corrupt because they bear his image.

James 3:8-10 (8) But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. (10) Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.