Are we in the Laodicean church age?

[NewCreation435]

Revelations 3:14-22 says
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”


Some people have said that the seven churches in Revelations represent the ages of church history and this is the last age which is today. This is the church that Jesus says nothing good about and calls them lukewarm. This may be stricken looked at from an American viewpoint because while the churches in America are in many cases lukewarm the churches throughout the world cannot be said to be lukewarm. Do you think this church mentioned in Revelations in this passage is representative of us today?

 

[MennoSota]

jsimms, your local church may have Laodicean tendencies, but there is no age of the church's based upon the the 7 churches in Revelation.

Revelations 3:14-22 says
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”


Some people have said that the seven churches in Revelations represent the ages of church history and this is the last age which is today. This is the church that Jesus says nothing good about and calls them lukewarm. This may be stricken looked at from an American viewpoint because while the churches in America are in many cases lukewarm the churches throughout the world cannot be said to be lukewarm. Do you think this church mentioned in Revelations in this passage is representative of us today?

The age theory is a debunked theory proposed by dispensationalists in the United States who viewed the church as primarily the USA. They utterly failed to take into account that churches across the globe all experience different issues than they.
For example: Churches in Muslim countries that are dying for their faith can hardly be called Laodicean. In China the church is growing faster than the age of the Apostles. This cannot be called Laodicean.
We must take off our regional glasses and throw away our thoughts that the US is Christianity. Instead, we can learn from each church and consider how our own church compares. What type of letter would Jesus write to my church?
An excellent commentary on Revelation and specifically the 7 churches is Robert Mounce book on Revelation. He provides the historic context of each church and how Jesus is addressing a very specific issue in these churches.
So...no...the church age theory should be mercifully tossed into the garbage bin of theories.

 

[Josiah]

Revelations 3:14-22 says
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”


Some people have said that the seven churches in Revelations represent the ages of church history and this is the last age which is today. This is the church that Jesus says nothing good about and calls them lukewarm. This may be stricken looked at from an American viewpoint because while the churches in America are in many cases lukewarm the churches throughout the world cannot be said to be lukewarm. Do you think this church mentioned in Revelations in this passage is representative of us today?

Curious.... do you hold that these 7 congregations represent AGES? If so, why?

 

[psalms 91]

Revelations 3:14-22 says
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”


Some people have said that the seven churches in Revelations represent the ages of church history and this is the last age which is today. This is the church that Jesus says nothing good about and calls them lukewarm. This may be stricken looked at from an American viewpoint because while the churches in America are in many cases lukewarm the churches throughout the world cannot be said to be lukewarm. Do you think this church mentioned in Revelations in this passage is representative of us today?

Yes I do

 

[Andrew]

jsimms, your local church may have Laodicean tendencies, but there is no age of the church's based upon the the 7 churches in Revelation.The age theory is a debunked theory proposed by dispensationalists in the United States who viewed the church as primarily the USA. They utterly failed to take into account that churches across the globe all experience different issues than they.
For example: Churches in Muslim countries that are dying for their faith can hardly be called Laodicean. In China the church is growing faster than the age of the Apostles. This cannot be called Laodicean.
We must take off our regional glasses and throw away our thoughts that the US is Christianity. Instead, we can learn from each church and consider how our own church compares. What type of letter would Jesus write to my church?
An excellent commentary on Revelation and specifically the 7 churches is Robert Mounce book on Revelation. He provides the historic context of each church and how Jesus is addressing a very specific issue in these churches.
So...no...the church age theory should be mercifully tossed into the garbage bin of theories.

Right you are to a certain degree, but let's say that the majority of the church is following a pattern, do you realize how big and popular evangelizing has gotten in the past century?
Do we not see a global trend happening here?
It's usually all about wealth which was never taught by scripture, yet on tv and mega churches its all about being financially blessed, lacking spirit and truth thus a lukewarm age for the majority of Christians.
Persecution runs rampant in the middle east, we are lucky to even get to church without being killed but we still have a major vice. The Lord says he will sup personally with anyone who answers his calling, sadly many people are deaf and blind and totally duked into believing that their is a 'wealth' salvation so revelation speaks to this age.
I still believe it is relevant, it speaks to me because my last church preached on tithing and wealthy blessings from it and frankly it gets on my nerves as its not taught in the NT, I dont need a handout from God when so many people live in poverty, they are more humble than me by not expecting it but they are RICH in belief!
This age does not get that! so yes I do believe it speaks to the majority and I believe you are wrong Menno about tossing this revelation into the garbage.

 

[NewCreation435]

Curious.... do you hold that these 7 congregations represent AGES? If so, why?

No, I would not say they represent ages. It could be they represent types of churches. as Mennosota said in his post and I alluded to in my original post to say that these are churches ages would be clearly an American view as churches in other parts of the world are in different places. From what I have heard the churches in Europe are even worse than the ones in America, but the faith of many in Africa and China is much greater than in America. So, I don't think you can generalize. I do think it is important that there are seven of them. It seems the number seven comes up often in Revelations. I have heard that it is a number having to do with deity or completeness

 

[MennoSota]

Right you are to a certain degree, but let's say that the majority of the church is following a pattern, do you realize how big and popular evangelizing has gotten in the past century?
Do we not see a global trend happening here?
It's usually all about wealth which was never taught by scripture, yet on tv and mega churches its all about being financially blessed, lacking spirit and truth thus a lukewarm age for the majority of Christians.
Persecution runs rampant in the middle east, we are lucky to even get to church without being killed but we still have a major vice. The Lord says he will sup personally with anyone who answers his calling, sadly many people are deaf and blind and totally duked into believing that their is a 'wealth' salvation so revelation speaks to this age.
I still believe it is relevant, it speaks to me because my last church preached on tithing and wealthy blessings from it and frankly it gets on my nerves as its not taught in the NT, I dont need a handout from God when so many people live in poverty, they are more humble than me by not expecting it but they are RICH in belief!
This age does not get that! so yes I do believe it speaks to the majority and I believe you are wrong Menno about tossing this revelation into the garbage.

You are merely projecting your observation into the text. Jesus gives no indication of an ages theory in the text. The ages theory is only a hundred years old and it was presented in the US to US Christians, particularly dispensationalists. There is no textual reason to accept it as having any legitimacy.

 

[Andrew]

You are merely projecting your observation into the text. Jesus gives no indication of an ages theory in the text. The ages theory is only a hundred years old and it was presented in the US to US Christians, particularly dispensationalists. There is no textual reason to accept it as having any legitimacy.

Well maybe its just a personal insight with me because I see this lukewarmness everywhere and it's quite sad, btw, not just America but apparently it's world wide if you actually took the time to watch foreign evangelism.
I watch basic cable/satellite that you can buy for 20 bucks at walmart, it's an epidemic and it's definitely a plague (so to speak) outside the US.
America was founded on pilgrims fleeing persecution so basically we were indeed religiously radical and fundamental to begin with, no question why a theory as such would sprout here first. IMO.
I could be wrong or I could be right, same with you, but to me it seems not such a bland idea as I personally perceive the behavior of that congregation as being likened to on a global scale for our day in age in general.

 

[MennoSota]

Well maybe its just a personal insight with me because I see this lukewarmness everywhere and it's quite sad, btw, not just America but apparently it's world wide if you actually took the time to watch foreign evangelism.
I watch basic cable/satellite that you can buy for 20 bucks at walmart, it's an epidemic and it's definitely a plague outside the US.
America was founded on pilgrims fleeing persecution so basically we were indeed religiously radical and fundamental to begin with, no question why a theory as such would sprout here first. IMO.
I could be wrong or I could be right, same with you, but to me it seems not such a bland idea as I personally perceive the behavior as being likened to this day in age.

It's not personal insight. It's you stereotyping and forcing it on a society.
Jesus wrote to the church of Laodicea, not to the society of Laodicean behavior. You are making a broad brush claim. It's the equivalent of saying "All white people are wealthy." Anyone who knows better, knows that is false, but if you're a poor person living in Africa you might believe it is true.

 

[Andrew]

It's not personal insight. It's you stereotyping and forcing it on a society.
Jesus wrote to the church of Laodicea, not to the society of Laodicean behavior. You are making a broad brush claim. It's the equivalent of saying "All white people are wealthy." Anyone who knows better, knows that is false, but if you're a poor person living in Africa you might believe it is true.

but he was writing to their behaviour :/

 

[MennoSota]

but he was writing to their behaviour :/

To the church at Laodicea. You and I can evaluate our own hearts to see if God might speak to us in a similar fashion, but we cannot project it upon others. That's unfair and it it prideful.

 

[Andrew]

To the church at Laodicea. You and I can evaluate our own hearts to see if God might speak to us in a similar fashion, but we cannot project it upon others. That's unfair and it it prideful.

Well said, I'm not trying to project, I identify revelation by what God has prompted in Spirit to receive, can I prove it? nope.
Revelation is a special book you see, the blessing is great to the observer but it's naturally designed to be cryptic to the unlearn man and so to each it's own so to speak, our scopes are entirely separate and what I see is different from what you see and I just so see that modern evangelism is the same problem of that of the Laodiceans IMO. I also see it as true to its time, many churches having different problems and so on, again Im just pronouncing that the lukewarmness of our time strikes more than the other churches description.
I'm not trying to be 'certain' of it, I absolutely can't stand astrology 'signs' and all that junk, its just an observation that's all.
Consider yourself right Menno by all means

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

Post #5:

Right you are to a certain degree, but let's say that the majority of the church is following a pattern, do you realize how big and popular evangelizing has gotten in the past century?
Do we not see a global trend happening here?

From an Eastern Australian perspective, evangelism (in its traditional “evangelical church” form) seems to have been declining. When I was young, in the town where I grew up, every Saturday night an open-sided van was parked in the main street, and from it the “evangelical gospel” was preached to passers by and those who stopped to listen. As far as I know, that happens no more.

But it is true that these days, there is an abundance of TV “evangelism” making the presenters rich.

==============================================================================================

With respect to the “mega-churches” and their prosperity gospel, are people even being exposed to information that leads to true saving faith? How does true saving faith relate to discipleship? How does counting the cost fit in?

Consider the people who are sucked in by the promise of physical health and financial abundance, and who through later disillusionment turn away – are they Hell-bound? Are they still saved? Were they ever saved? Does the false but highly successful prosperity gospel fit into “how big and popular evangelizing has gotten in the past century”?

==============================================================================================

A gentleman named K. P. Yohannan was once heavily burdened by the need to reach people in the almost inaccessible, remote reaches of his country of origin, India. He realised that the only practical way of extending the Gospel message to those people was to fund willing local people to take on the difficult task.

In one of his books (I’ve forgotten which), he recounts that he realised that churches in America were the best placed to support that style of evangelism. He visited many churches of many types. The responses he received initially surprised him. He expected the “saving of souls” to be high on their agenda. Generally speaking, he was told that funds could not be spared because they were required for building improvements, new pews, church programs, and the like. At least one church said it would contribute some funds to the work, but only if all resulting groups of believers were officially registered as belonging to that denomination.

==============================================================================================

So, what is the current situation, really? False “gospels” are being preached. Denominations continue to seek their own expansion. “Independent” local churches are being set up by people who crave personal aggrandisement.

For some reason, that all appears to be less than healthy.

==============================================================================================

 

[Andrew]

==============================================================================================

Post #5:


From an Eastern Australian perspective, evangelism (in its traditional “evangelical church” form) seems to have been declining. When I was young, in the town where I grew up, every Saturday night an open-sided van was parked in the main street, and from it the “evangelical gospel” was preached to passers by and those who stopped to listen. As far as I know, that happens no more.

But it is true that these days, there is an abundance of TV “evangelism” making the presenters rich.

==============================================================================================

With respect to the “mega-churches” and their prosperity gospel, are people even being exposed to information that leads to true saving faith? How does true saving faith relate to discipleship? How does counting the cost fit in?

Consider the people who are sucked in by the promise of physical health and financial abundance, and who through later disillusionment turn away – are they Hell-bound? Are they still saved? Were they ever saved? Does the false but highly successful prosperity gospel fit into “how big and popular evangelizing has gotten in the past century”?

==============================================================================================

A gentleman named K. P. Yohannan was once heavily burdened by the need to reach people in the almost inaccessible, remote reaches of his country of origin, India. He realised that the only practical way of extending the Gospel message to those people was to fund willing local people to take on the difficult task.

In one of his books (I’ve forgotten which), he recounts that he realised that churches in America were the best placed to support that style of evangelism. He visited many churches of many types. The responses he received initially surprised him. He expected the “saving of souls” to be high on their agenda. Generally speaking, he was told that funds could not be spared because they were required for building improvements, new pews, church programs, and the like. At least one church said it would contribute some funds to the work, but only if all resulting groups of believers were officially registered as belonging to that denomination.

==============================================================================================

So, what is the current situation, really? False “gospels” are being preached. Denominations continue to seek their own expansion. “Independent” local churches are being set up by people who crave personal aggrandisement.

For some reason, that all appears to be less than healthy.

==============================================================================================

In all respect, I believe the Catholic church eventually saves more than they duke, kind of like a gateway to faith because the majority of us here have our roots in Catholicism. Does that make the RCC right? Depends on how you look at it, the gospel never changes and humans love tradition and superstition so having their heritage in the Catholic church will have its part in introducing the bible in a way, are they all saved? You bet!
Is it practical? Absolutely!
Is it infallible? Nope and there is much corruption in it, but again if it has saved one it has saved enough... Leaving the 99 for the one... make sense?
Sorry im in a hurry because mosquitos are killing me, I hope I made my point but don't read too much into it. Got to go, ouch!!!
Ahhhh

 

[MoreCoffee]

Revelations 3:14-22 says
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”


Some people have said that the seven churches in Revelations represent the ages of church history and this is the last age which is today. This is the church that Jesus says nothing good about and calls them lukewarm. This may be stricken looked at from an American viewpoint because while the churches in America are in many cases lukewarm the churches throughout the world cannot be said to be lukewarm. Do you think this church mentioned in Revelations in this passage is representative of us today?

I do not believe that the letters to the seven churches in the Apocalypse of saint John the Theologian are about seven ages of the Church. They are letters to churches that all existed in the first century. But they do have value for people today. Each of the churches has good things and most also have bad things working inside. The specifics of the good and the bad may not apply directly to churches today but the principles at work in them do appear to have application to the matters that work for good and for bad in churches today. That is where church members can learn lessons from the letters.