False teachers

[tango]

Jas 1:1-3 NKJV James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. (2) My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, (3) knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

Act 5:40-41 NKJV And they agreed with him, and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. (41) So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.

Php 4:11-12 NKJV Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: (12) I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

 

[tango]

Heb 11:35-38 NKJV Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. (36) Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. (37) They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— (38) of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus payed the price for us to prosper in all things, or do you disagree with that?

The holy scriptures disagree with that, in fact the Lord Jesus Christ disagrees with that; he said,

Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16:31-33)​

 

[psalms 91]

3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. - Romans 5:3-5

29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have. - Philippians 1:29-30

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. - Romans 8:18

Look at all of that prosperity.

Then I will rejoice in your sufferings if you believe that you want that.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Then I will rejoice in your sufferings if you believe that you want that.

Okay. If it produces endurance, character, and hope, rejoice away. You can keep the jet.

 

[Hammster]

Then I will rejoice in your sufferings if you believe that you want that.

I don't understand this. It's like you don't agree with the scriptures put forth by tango and I. If you disagree, please give us your understanding. Or, give us the scripture that supports your view.

 

[psalms 91]

cherry picking does nto count, Does it not say that Jesus paid the price for our peace, that He became poor so that we may be rich, that He took on our infirmities and yes, He paid the price for our healing as well. By the way, please give me your complete definition of salvation because my understanding of the definition goews much deeper than just going to heaven and being saved, have you ever looked at that?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

cherry picking does nto count, Does it not say that Jesus paid the price for our peace, that He became poor so that we may be rich

Rich in what? and, btw, the "cherries" that tango and Hammster have offered taste fine to me.

that He took on our infirmities and yes, He paid the price for our healing as well.

Healing from what? Lemme ask you - do you ever get the common cold? If so, why?

 

[Hammster]

cherry picking does nto count, Does it not say that Jesus paid the price for our peace, that He became poor so that we may be rich, that He took on our infirmities and yes, He paid the price for our healing as well. By the way, please give me your complete definition of salvation because my understanding of the definition goews much deeper than just going to heaven and being saved, have you ever looked at that?

Still waiting for the verses. Tango and I provided the verses that you seem to disagree with. Where are the actual verses that support your view?

 

[MoreCoffee]

cherry picking does nto count, Does it not say that Jesus paid the price for our peace, that He became poor so that we may be rich, that He took on our infirmities and yes, He paid the price for our healing as well. By the way, please give me your complete definition of salvation because my understanding of the definition goews much deeper than just going to heaven and being saved, have you ever looked at that?

Clearly in this world those promises are what we hope for and patiently wait for knowing that they will be fulfilled in the next world when we rise to eternal life in Christ. That is why saint Paul says, "In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible." (Romans 8:24) and the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that in this world we will have tribulations saying, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) I noticed that you bypassed what the Lord said in John 16, and perhaps there's a reason for doing so, please tell me what it is?

 

[psalms 91]

Clearly in this world those promises are what we hope for and patiently wait for knowing that they will be fulfilled in the next world when we rise to eternal life in Christ. That is why saint Paul says, "In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible." (Romans 8:24) and the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that in this world we will have tribulations saying, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) I noticed that you bypassed what the Lord said in John 16, and perhaps there's a reason for doing so, please tell me what it is?

Not sure, do you mean tribulations? If so I agree with that but our tribulations should be because of the gospel and living a godly life, not the sorrows of the world. We should pass through troubles and come out the other side victorious. Is it opleasent of course not but our hope and promise is in God and He will deliver us. The key to a victorious life is praying and knowing Gods will in any situation. God is not silent usually, if we but listen to the spirit and that still small voice we will know exactly how God is leading us. Am I goodat this, no not always and when I miss it I pay the price for that and instead of passing through I get bogged down and go through those trials.

 

[Alithis]

We know there are false teachers and they are even within the church as high profile leaders

Which famous evangelists do you feel are teaching false theology?

the pope . --well you asked which do we "feel" is - you did ask lol

 

[MoreCoffee]

Clearly in this world those promises are what we hope for and patiently wait for knowing that they will be fulfilled in the next world when we rise to eternal life in Christ. That is why saint Paul says, "In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible." (Romans 8:24) and the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that in this world we will have tribulations saying, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) I noticed that you bypassed what the Lord said in John 16, and perhaps there's a reason for doing so, please tell me what it is?

Not sure, do you mean tribulations? If so I agree with that but our tribulations should be because of the gospel and living a godly life, not the sorrows of the world. We should pass through troubles and come out the other side victorious. Is it pleasant of course not but our hope and promise is in God and He will deliver us. The key to a victorious life is praying and knowing Gods will in any situation. God is not silent usually, if we but listen to the spirit and that still small voice we will know exactly how God is leading us. Am I good at this, no not always and when I miss it I pay the price for that and instead of passing through I get bogged down and go through those trials.

Q: Not sure, do you mean tribulations? A: Well, John 16:33 says tribulation.

You said: our tribulations should be because of the gospel and living a godly life, not the sorrows of the world. I reply: When one has the flu, is involved in a motor vehicle crash, or suffers a loss of a family member and grieves it isn't necessarily because of the gospel or godly living and these things are common to the faithful as well as to the wicked and worldly.

You said: We should pass through troubles and come out the other side victorious. I reply: Why? How is one victorious over a cold or a broken arm? They heal and one moves on but I am not sure what victory one has over them that a worldly person who recovers does not share in their recovery.

Prayer does help in some matters yet prayer rarely brings an instant healing of a broken limb, a bad tooth, a cut, or a cold.

 

[MoreCoffee]

the pope . --well you asked which do we "feel" is - you did ask lol

The current Pope is Francis, what false teaching do you accuse him of propagating?

 

[Josiah]

I suspect that a true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - inviting (even insisting) on accountability because the true teacher is focused on truth rather than the ego of self, the obsession of self lording it over others as the gentiles do; and confident that God's truth will prevail.

I suspect that it is the false teacher who must hide in the dark - insisting that there is ONE who is absolutely exempt from accountability (self!) and must build tall, thick walls around self of egoism, power/authority, exclusivity, even self deification because the false teacher either doesn't care about truth or knows truth is elsewhere; what matters is POWER of self, the ability of self to rule over others, to lord it over others, to control and to elevate self.


As I read things like the latest edition of the ever-changing Catechism of the RCC itself # 87, as I read things like "The Authority of the Church" by LDS Apostle/Prophet Bruce McConkie, as I read the foundational claims of every "cult" known to me - I find this sharp distinction, this very, very loud, foundational, keystone insisting of self for self exempting only self from accountability, truthfulness with the substitution of all the god-like POWER it itself insists it itself uniquely has. It's one of the reasons I left the RC Denomination and equally why my investigation into the LDS caused me to reject that denomination, too.




Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Q: Not sure, do you mean tribulations? A: Well, John 16:33 says tribulation.

You said: our tribulations should be because of the gospel and living a godly life, not the sorrows of the world. I reply: When one has the flu, is involved in a motor vehicle crash, or suffers a loss of a family member and grieves it isn't necessarily because of the gospel or godly living and these things are common to the faithful as well as to the wicked and worldly.

You said: We should pass through troubles and come out the other side victorious. I reply: Why? How is one victorious over a cold or a broken arm? They heal and one moves on but I am not sure what victory one has over them that a worldly person who recovers does not share in their recovery.

Prayer does help in some matters yet prayer rarely brings an instant healing of a broken limb, a bad tooth, a cut, or a cold.

Yet sometimes it does and I have experienced instant healing and I know others that have as well. I also saw a woman healed of cancer in such a spectacular way that 55 members of her family showed up at church and many were not saved but they knew a miracle when they saw it, she was supposed to die and she was healed and no esxplanation for it other than God

 

[psalms 91]

Clearly in this world those promises are what we hope for and patiently wait for knowing that they will be fulfilled in the next world when we rise to eternal life in Christ. That is why saint Paul says, "In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping -- nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible." (Romans 8:24) and the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that in this world we will have tribulations saying, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) I noticed that you bypassed what the Lord said in John 16, and perhaps there's a reason for doing so, please tell me what it is?

Please give me your definition of salvation. It goes much deeper than just being saved, salvation includes a lot of things.

 

[tango]

Yet sometimes it does and I have experienced instant healing and I know others that have as well. I also saw a woman healed of cancer in such a spectacular way that 55 members of her family showed up at church and many were not saved but they knew a miracle when they saw it, she was supposed to die and she was healed and no esxplanation for it other than God

I don't doubt for a minute that miracles can happen. But they don't happen all the time. That's the crucial difference.

If we say miracles never happen then we have to explain away every single instance of a miracle because it only takes one counterexample to prove that "never" is false. In that regard it's no different to the "always" position - it only takes one example where a miracle did not happen to prove that "always" is false.

The problem with false teachers isn't that they teach miracles can happen, it's when they teach that miracles are pretty much our entitlement as Christians. God may provide a miracle, he may not, but ultimately it's God who makes that decision and not us. Trying to think that we can decide when a miracle happens, that we can claim them as an automatic entitlement, effectively puts us in God's place and is therefore barely different to what the serpent offered Eve in the garden when he said "you will be like God". Even playing with semantic gymnastics by claiming that it's still God who actually does the miracle doesn't work because if God performs miracles based on our demands he becomes little more than a puppet on our strings, which still leaves us trying to claim God's place.

 

[Hammster]

I don't doubt for a minute that miracles can happen. But they don't happen all the time. That's the crucial difference.

If we say miracles never happen then we have to explain away every single instance of a miracle because it only takes one counterexample to prove that "never" is false. In that regard it's no different to the "always" position - it only takes one example where a miracle did not happen to prove that "always" is false.

The problem with false teachers isn't that they teach miracles can happen, it's when they teach that miracles are pretty much our entitlement as Christians. God may provide a miracle, he may not, but ultimately it's God who makes that decision and not us. Trying to think that we can decide when a miracle happens, that we can claim them as an automatic entitlement, effectively puts us in God's place and is therefore barely different to what the serpent offered Eve in the garden when he said "you will be like God". Even playing with semantic gymnastics by claiming that it's still God who actually does the miracle doesn't work because if God performs miracles based on our demands he becomes little more than a puppet on our strings, which still leaves us trying to claim God's place.

And the other issue is that when the miracle doesn't happen, it's because faith is lacking in either the sick person or the healer. So not only must you have faith, you need a greater faith than it took to be saved.

 

[tango]

cherry picking does nto count, Does it not say that Jesus paid the price for our peace,

We can be at peace whatever is going on with our lives.

that He became poor so that we may be rich,

Is that why he said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven? Is that why Paul knew both abundance and lack? Is it why John was exiled?

that He took on our infirmities and yes, He paid the price for our healing as well.

He took on our sin and paid the price for us to receive everlasting life. Guaranteed healing in this life isn't part of the deal, as has been discussed in the "for those who have not been healed" thread.

By the way, please give me your complete definition of salvation because my understanding of the definition goews much deeper than just going to heaven and being saved, have you ever looked at that?

What do we need aside from a place in heaven? If you want to get into a Bethel-esque concept of sozo you'd need to justify why wealth and health are promised over and above a place in heaven unless you want to cherrypick the verse from James that uses the term sozo and expect it to apply universally, especially if you can't explain why it demonstrably doesn't always apply. If we look at the Revelation and the power given to the beast it's clear that even if Christians were financially wealthy it would do them little good if they couldn't buy or sell, so why would God promise us something that was of zero value?

Isn't it better to look at the stance taken by Job who praised God despite being struck, Habakkuk who worshipped God even though everything was going south rapidly, Daniel who would rather go to the lions than stop praying to God, Shadrach Meshach and Abednego who told the king "even if God does not save us we will not worship your image", Stephen who asked God to forgive the people stoning him with his dying breaths, and the like?

It's hardly cherry-picking verses when there are so many of them that show God's people in anything but perfect health and financial prosperity.