An old road to life.

[MoreCoffee]

God gave Moses Laws for the people of God and the Laws contained a way, an old way from our perspective, of life that leads to eternal life.

Moses said to the people:

‘Now, Israel, take notice of the laws and customs that I teach you today, and observe them, that you may have life and may enter and take possession of the land that the Lord the God of your fathers is giving you. You must add nothing to what I command you, and take nothing from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God just as I lay them down for you. Keep them, observe them, and they will demonstrate to the peoples your wisdom and understanding. When they come to know of all these laws they will exclaim, “No other people is as wise and prudent as this great nation.” And indeed, what great nation is there that has its gods so near as the Lord our God is to us whenever we call to him? And what great nation is there that has laws and customs to match this whole Law that I put before you today?’​

​

This old way may not be relevant today. Some people say it is not. They quote the words of Christ in the sermon on the mount in which Jesus says:

Matthew 5:17-20 17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. ​

What does 'fulfil' mean in the context of the sermon on the mount. Some treat it as a synonym for 'abolish' and they take what Jesus said as meaning "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to abolish them", the problem with this kind of approach is obvious.

Fulfil must mean something different from abolish.

 

[TurtleHare]

I agree that fulfill isn't the same as abolish but the concept of what fulfill in Christ is important to know that the law isn't what saves us anyway but it's what we live by because of salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree that fulfill isn't the same as abolish but the concept of what fulfill in Christ is important to know that the law isn't what saves us anyway but it's what we live by because of salvation.

The book of Hebrews says:

Hebrews 8:1 The main point of what we are saying is that we have a high priest. He is seated at the right hand of the divine majesty, in heaven, 2 where he serves as minister of the true temple and Sanctuary, set up not by any mortal, but by the Lord.

3 A high priest is appointed to offer to God gifts and sacrifices, and Jesus, also, has to offer some sacrifice. 4 Had he remained on earth, he would not be a priest, since others offer the gifts, according to the law. 5 In fact, the ritual celebrated by those priests is only an imitation, and shadow of the heavenly Sanctuary. We know the word of God to Moses, with regard to the construction of the holy tent. He said: You are to make everything according to the pattern shown to you on the mountain.

6 Now, however, Jesus enjoys a much higher ministry, in being the mediator of a better Covenant, founded on better promises. 7 If all had been perfect in the first Covenant, there would have been no need for another one. 8 Yet God sees defects when he says: The days are coming—it is the word of the Lord—when I will draw up a new Covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the Covenant that I made with their ancestors on the day I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. They did not keep my Covenant, and so I myself have forsaken them, says the Lord.

10 But this is the Covenant that I will make with the people of Israel in the days to come: I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people.

11 None of them will have to teach one another or say to each other: Know the Lord, for they will know me from the least to the greatest. 12 I will forgive their sins and no longer remember their wrongs.

13 Here, we are being told of a new Covenant; which means, that the first one had become obsolete, and what is obsolete, and aging, is soon to disappear.​

Is it possible that fulfil either means "make obsolete" or that it implies making the Law obsolete?

 

[psalms 91]

The book of Hebrews says:

Hebrews 8:1 The main point of what we are saying is that we have a high priest. He is seated at the right hand of the divine majesty, in heaven, 2 where he serves as minister of the true temple and Sanctuary, set up not by any mortal, but by the Lord.

3 A high priest is appointed to offer to God gifts and sacrifices, and Jesus, also, has to offer some sacrifice. 4 Had he remained on earth, he would not be a priest, since others offer the gifts, according to the law. 5 In fact, the ritual celebrated by those priests is only an imitation, and shadow of the heavenly Sanctuary. We know the word of God to Moses, with regard to the construction of the holy tent. He said: You are to make everything according to the pattern shown to you on the mountain.

6 Now, however, Jesus enjoys a much higher ministry, in being the mediator of a better Covenant, founded on better promises. 7 If all had been perfect in the first Covenant, there would have been no need for another one. 8 Yet God sees defects when he says: The days are coming—it is the word of the Lord—when I will draw up a new Covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the Covenant that I made with their ancestors on the day I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. They did not keep my Covenant, and so I myself have forsaken them, says the Lord.

10 But this is the Covenant that I will make with the people of Israel in the days to come: I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people.

11 None of them will have to teach one another or say to each other: Know the Lord, for they will know me from the least to the greatest. 12 I will forgive their sins and no longer remember their wrongs.

13 Here, we are being told of a new Covenant; which means, that the first one had become obsolete, and what is obsolete, and aging, is soon to disappear.​

Is it possible that fulfil either means "make obsolete" or that it implies making the Law obsolete?

How would you reconcile that thought with what Jesus said that not one joy or tittle will be done away with concerning the law? No the law is still there/

 

[MoreCoffee]

How would you reconcile that thought with what Jesus said that not one joy or tittle will be done away with concerning the law? No the law is still there/

You are correct. Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfil it and Hebrews says that the old covenant is obsolete so do you think that maybe "old covenant" is not exactly the same thing as "the Law and the Prophets" that Jesus mentions?

 

[psalms 91]

First I believe that the covenants are progressive and that they are built upon the old so no I do not think that they cease to exist but I do think they are incomplete or obsolete without the new covenant

 

[MoreCoffee]

First I believe that the covenants are progressive and that they are built upon the old so no I do not think that they cease to exist but I do think they are incomplete or obsolete without the new covenant

I see, so you're thinking of obsolete as being like the old model that was superseded by a newer model - like my i7 2600K being obsolete because the newer i7 8600K is available and way faster and better at almost everything than the old one was.

 

[psalms 91]

I see, so you're thinking of obsolete as being like the old model that was superseded by a newer model - like my i7 2600K being obsolete because the newer i7 8600K is available and way faster and better at almost everything than the old one was.

Something like that

 

[MoreCoffee]

Something like that

Okay, sorry if my example was a little boring It was well intended.

 

[psalms 91]

Okay, sorry if my example was a little boring It was well intended.

Not boring at all MC

 

[MoreCoffee]

Could the meaning of fulfil be "make obsolete"?

"Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to make them obsolete"

Is that the intended meaning?

 

[TurtleHare]

Jesus has fulfilled the law and in that sense we don't have to fulfill it in order to appease God who demands we are holy to gain entry into heaven so that means we don't work to get into heaven.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus has fulfilled the law and in that sense we don't have to fulfill it in order to appease God who demands we are holy to gain entry into heaven so that means we don't work to get into heaven.

Do you think that Jesus fulfilling the law means that you do not need to keep the moral commandments and if you do can you say why?