Works of grace.

[MoreCoffee]

Ephesians 4:17, 20-24 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, ... 20 But ye did not so learn Christ; 21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; 23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

The way we learn Christ is by doing as well as hearing. The doing is essential.

 

[Lamb]

Ephesians 4 begins with this... As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

The end of Ephesians 4 is this: And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Sanctified living happens because we were first forgiven by God because of Jesus.

 

[NewCreation435]

I like how both Paul and Peter talk about knowledge and the renewing of the mind. Renewed thoughts lead to renewed behavior lead to renewed feelings.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 4:17, 20-24 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, ... 20 But ye did not so learn Christ; 21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; 23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

The way we learn Christ is by doing as well as hearing. The doing is essential.

Grace is something God extends to you.
Grace is something you can extend to others.
Grace is: Giving someone something they don't deserve.
If a person has to earn your action on their behalf, the action you provide is not an action of grace.
Therefore the RC does not preach salvation by grace. It preaches salvation by works. Such a message is contrary to the Gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Grace is something God extends to you.
Grace is something you can extend to others.
Grace is: Giving someone something they don't deserve.

Grace is generous giving. It does not matter if the person deserves kindness or not. It does not matter is the person works hard or not. All that matters is that the giver chooses to give generously.

Matthew 20:1-16 1 "The kingdom of heaven is like the father of a family who went out in early morning to lead workers into his vineyard. 2 Then, having made an agreement with the workers for one denarius per day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace. 4 And he said to them, "You may go into my vineyard, too, and what I will give you will be just." 5 So they went forth. But again, he went out about the sixth, and about the ninth hour, and he acted similarly. 6 Yet truly, about the eleventh hour, he went out and found others standing, and he said to them, "Why have you stood here idle all day?" 7 They say to him, "Because no one has hired us." He said to them, "You also may go into my vineyard." 8 And when evening had arrived, the lord of the vineyard said to his manager, "Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last, even to the first." 9 And so, when those who had arrived about the eleventh hour came forward, each received a single denarius. 10 Then when the first ones also came forward, they considered that they would receive more. But they, too, received one denarius. 11 And upon receiving it, they murmured against the father of the family, 12 saying, "These last have worked for one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who worked bearing the weight and heat of the day." 13 But responding to one of them, he said: "Friend, I caused you no injury. Did you not agree with me to one denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go. But it is my will to give to this last, just as to you. 15 And is it not lawful for me to do what I will? Or is your eye wicked because I am good?" 16 So then, the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. For many are called, but few are chosen."
​

If a person has to earn your action on their behalf, the action you provide is not an action of grace.

See Matthew 20:1-16 for why it is not true that "If a person has to earn your action on their behalf, the action you provide is not an action of grace". The parable teaches what grace really is.

Therefore the RC does not preach salvation by grace. It preaches salvation by works. Such a message is contrary to the Gospel.

The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works Additionally, nowhere in the holy scriptures is it teaught that we are saved by “faith alone.” The only place in all of the holy scriptures where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24 and that verse it says that we are not justified by faith alone. The holy scriptures say very clearly that we are not saved by faith alone. Works do play a part in salvation. Numerous passages in the new testament that teach about the last judgement say that Christians will be judged by their works. Romans 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 20 and 22, 2 Corinthians 5, and many more passages teach that works play a role in the last judgement. Faith alone cannot save and that may be partly why 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith.

Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace. Christians do nothing, apart from God’s grace, that contributes to their salvation. Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace. Catholics believe a response of faith and works is a part of one's salvation; consider what is written in Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love” Faith working through love is what matters and that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Josiah]

Grace is generous giving. It does not matter if the person deserves kindness or not. It does not matter is the person works hard or not. All that matters is that the giver chooses to give generously.

Amen! Thus, we have to wonder why it so horrified the RCC to have Luther say that we are justified by GOD'S grace - irrespective of our merits. It saw/sees that as perhaps the worst heresy ever, so horrific as to justify spliting itself (again) and excluding a third of Christians from it because they held (with Luther and Calvin) that justification is by grace alone - NOT because of ANYTHING in the receiver, because they held (with Luther and Calvin) that Jesus is wholly the Savior and not self (partly or otherwise).

The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works

Then I HAVE to wonder.... why every time any non-Catholic posts about justification, you ridicule, repudiate, condemn whatever they post on the subject? Why you refuse every time I've asked you WHO IS THE SAVIOR - Jesus or self? WHOSE works justify you - JESUS or YOURS?

And I HAVE to wonder.... why did the RCC choose to make JUSTIFICATION the centerpiece of the Reformation dispute (and go to ENORMOUS lenghts to be uber-clear the issue was NOT Sanctification, discipleship, Christian living, what the faithful do because they have faith)? Luther said we are justified by grace alone, saved by Jesus alone: and we all know how the RCC responded to that, how HORRIFIED it was by that, how it would have burned Luther at the stake if the German prince had not protected him.... how non-Catholcs are still repudiated, condemned, mocked, ridiculed over and over for saying what we do: We are justified solely by God's GRACE - which has everything to do with God's heart, His unconditional love, His mercy and NOTHING to do with our merit, deeds, works, "tapping God's empowering", "using the gas God puts in our tank" or anything else in justification? IF Catholicism agrees with Luther and Calvin on this - THE point it so powerfully condemned them for - then it has a lot of explaining to do and is WAY overdue for a formal papal apology (some fools actually thought that would happen during the 500th Anniversary of the Reformation - FOOLS, I say, because the RCC has not for 500 years believed we are saved by God's grace as a free gift with no regard for the receiver's merit, heart, works, etc.... it STILL foundationally disagrees with the idea that Jesus IS THE Savior and thus self IN NO WAY, IN NO SENSE, is. You go to great lengths to defend the RCC's rejection, in great lengths to disagree with Albion, MennoSota, me and others on this very point.


Here's what this good Catholic kid was taught on this subject (and these are verbatim quotes from Catholic teachers): "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but YOU gotta get YOURSELF through them by what YOU do." "Technically, Jesus saves no one rather He makes it possible for all to be saved." I was taught that (at least one of) the reasons for Purgatory is "few can complete saving themselves during our lifetime."

nowhere in the holy scriptures is it teaught that we are saved by “faith alone.”

Ah.... now are you being more Catholic... quite horrified by the idea that GOD saves by GRACE - giving to us the Savior and all blessings with him, GIVING to us faith that apprehends and embraces all that.

Gotta make Jesus as small as possible, self as big as possible. Gotta put SELF in the equation - SELF the point on which all actually hinges. Which is why Catholicism so hates the Reformation idea of Soli DEO Gloria in justification, so repudiates Sola GRATIA - Solus CHRISTUS - Sola Fide because it makes it about God and not about self, it makes Jesus the one who saves rather than the one each self sees in the mirror (and oh, it also takes the individual RC Denomination out of the equation).

Works do play a part

You just said our works play no part (perhaps to SOUND Protestant and suggest your denomination really goofed in the Reformation and needs to confess its grave error and issue a grand apology).... now you say it does. So I'll ask you again: WHOSE works justify? Jesus' (so that Jesus is the Savior) or yours (so that you are the savior of you)?

Now, don't try to CHANGE the topic (which is what Catholics love to do)..... we aren't talking about Sanctification.... both the Reformers AND your denomination went to enormous lengths to make that clear, both were UBER careful to stress that's NOT where the disagreement is.... ALL on ALL sides ALL agree that those with the gift of faith are to be faithful, that those with the gift of spiritual life are to live that life - NO ONE EVER disputed that, as Luther and Calvin and the RCC all agreed - we're not talking about our works AFTER justification, we're talking about our works PRIOR to justification, PRIOR to being given faith and spiritual life and the Holy Spirit: THAT was the sole debate, THAT is where the RCC so passionately for 500 years has repudiated Protestantism on what Catholicism has called its central defining issue: Jesus is the Savior.

Faith alone cannot save

Now you are sounding Catholic.... and the passion to make Jesus small (even irrelevant in terms of being the Savior).... and self really big.

1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith

NO ONE ON THE PLANET disagrees with 1 Corinthians 13:13. But this verse does NOT say, "And so you are justifed by your own works of love making Jesus an unnecessary joke." This verse is about sanctification - remember, an issue we all AGREE on - what you are doing is taking verses about Sanctification and imputing them to Justification where they do not apply.

Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace.

Everyone believes that - always have, always will. Protestants and Catholic alike. But again, you are changing the subject - trying to repudiate Protestants by switching to a subject that Catholicism insists Protestantism is correct. OF COURSE, those who are justified (thus have faith, spiritual life, the Holy Spirit) are to be faithful - as EVERYONE has ALWAYS said, but that does NOT mean that Protestants are apostate heretics for insisting that OUR faithfulness is what causes us to have faith, the Holy Spirit, life.





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[MoreCoffee]

Then I HAVE to wonder.... why every time any non-Catholic posts about justification, you ridicule, repudiate, condemn whatever they post on the subject?

Brother show me these posts that you allege I wrote every time any non-Catholic posts about justification; the posts that you allege "ridicule, repudiate, condemn" whatever they post on the subject. Or are you engaging in hyperbole for dramatic effect? Surely what you wrote cannot be the truth even if you "feel like it is".

Here is the link to the nearly 2,000 post thread on Justification that I started. It would be the place to start your search.

That thread started with this post

Most of the bible was written either in Hebrew or Greek. Some parts are in Aramaic and maybe a little Latin is present in this or that part of the four canonical gospels and there may be a phrase here and there of Persian or Babylonian or even Egyptian origin. But for the most part a scholar who knows ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek will be equipped to read the scriptures in their allegedly original languages - I say allegedly original because it is possible that some parts of the first books of the old testament may have been written in languages other than Hebrew but translated into Hebrew at some time in the remote past.

In theology some words take on very specific meanings that are sharply defined in each Christian tradition. One such word is Justification. Saint Paul uses the Greek word "δικαίωσις" for "justification" numerous times in his letters but it is less frequently used in the other new testament books and, or course, in the Hebrew language a different word "צָדַק" is used and translated as "justification" or "justify" or "justified". But for some theologians the main focus for their tightly defined meaning for "justification" is found in saint Paul's letters.

In Protestant traditions the word "Justification" is sometimes taken to mean "Just as if I'd never sinned" with very strong emphasis on courtroom and legal explanations of the word which amount to something like "just as if I'd never sinned". In Catholic tradition that is not so.

Catholic teaching places more emphasis in Justification meaning "made righteous" or "made just" and the idea is that not only is there a legal idea in the word "justification" but there is also a real change in the people who are said to be "justified" and that real change is that they become - progressively - more and more just and righteous when they make good use of the graces that God gives to them in their lives. And because Catholic tradition keeps both the idea of legal and of actual change of status in its use of "justification" it follows that Catholic theology also places emphasis on real change in one's way of life and attitudes and words and doings as the actual meaning of "justification".

It may be interesting to have a calm and well reasoned discussion about these ideas and their sources in holy scripture as well as in the development of theology in Christian thought. If you're interested in such a discussion come on board and start. I will post some material from Catholic sources as the discussion goes along. I think I may be the only actively posting Catholic on CH
so do not expect me to deal with everything that my Protestant (and other) brethren have to say about their own views nor to answer every objection that some Protestant traditions have raised against Catholic views (or alleged Catholic views).

If you want a polemic discussion about Justification and why this or that view is all wrong and evil then please don't raise polemics in this thread - start a different thread for that if you want to but leave this one for civil and respectful discussion.

God be with you all. And may we have a fruitful discussion.

The Justification thread ended with the following post after many fine discussions and (sadly) after a few heated personal insult battles.

Justification is such an important matter for Christians that it deserves to be discussed and civilly debated among brothers and sisters who disagree about exactly what the word means and how Christians receive it and experience it in their lives. This thread was created for that end as was stated in the first post (almost 1,900 posts ago) that launched the topic here in Christianity Haven's Christian Theology forum. And now, after so many posts and so much good discussion it appears to be time to call it a day - not because we have reached a consensus not because we accept one another's views as genuinely Christian but because the discussion may have exhausted the pool of tolerance that was available to us as a Christian forum. For my part I would be happy to let the topic continue until all the participants were tired of it and let it die a natural death through lack of continuing interest and new posts but that cannot happen partly because the lessons learned (and some were learned) are mixed with some bitterness and the bitterness is beginning to be present too much and too often. So let us thank God for the good that is present in the discussion thus far, thank one another for the good things written and for the civil posts posted and move on to new debates in new threads.

God bless and keep you all.

 

[Josiah]

NOTICE TO PROTESTANTS..... just a "heads up"


As a former Catholic ..... now a convert to Protestantism.... this took me awhile to "get" but it's critical to understanding.


In the Bible, the same word CAN have different meanings depending on the context. One of those words is "grace." In SANCTIFICATION (when the context is Christian living, Christian discipleship, the Christian response), the word often means "God's empowering strength." Protestants use the word in this context too (albeit rarely). But in Justification, it means God's gift, blessings. Catholics use the word in this context too (very rarely and almost always in the issue of baptism). But Catholics often use the Sanctification meaning when discussing Justification.


When I was a nice Catholic boy, I was taught that THIS is the meaning of "grace" in the context of Justification (I think this is verbatim): "Grace is like spiritual 'gas' that God puts in your tank so that YOU can get YOURSELF where God wants you to be." Let that soak in.... ponder that..... take a moment to think about that....


In discussions about Justification, you will find Catholics who will tell some Protestant, "Catholics believe that we are saved by God's grace." It SOUNDS like they are agreeing with Protestants (and apologizing for excommunicating Luther, lol) but is that what they are actually saying? Is the same thing as Protestantism or in fact the antithesis of it? Now combine that with all the other things we Catholics were taught: "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but its up to you to get yourself through it by God's help." Even the comment of one of our RCIA leaders: "Jesus technically saves no one but makes it possible for all to be saved." So, is Jesus the Savior or rather a Helper or Possibility Maker or Offerer? It took me awhile to "get" this (actually, after I left Catholicism did this begin to dawn on me....and the Reformation actually begin to come into focus and make sense).


Although in violation of classic Catholicism, in violation of the Council of Orange and SO much more (as Luther noted to the ANGER of the RCC), that denomination has embraced synergism and semi-Pelagianism to the extent that it's now in the "DNA" of Catholic theology. Actually, Catholicism is very muddy, fuzzy, unclear on this topic (the topic where one should be most clear!!!) - since the RCC over the centuries has stated every possible position there is on Justification, since EVERY position (including Luthers) can be found, there is the underlining view that JUSTIFICATION is a synergist, cooperative effort where God empowers and self acts - and together, one comes to life. They will defend this biblically by quoting verses on Sanctification and apply them to Justification. Protestants need to ask themselves: Thus, is Jesus the Savior? Or is He only a helper or possibility-maker or offerer..... it is "the free gift of God lest any can boast" as the Bible says or actually something we did for yourself (albeit entirely by God's empowering)..... is the point God's GIFT or our ACCOMPLISHMENT? Is it God's blessing or our adequate tapping of God's power that result in our justification?


After spending a lot of time at Catholic apologetic sites, I've also seen a ploy.... to condemn the Protestant view of Justification by quoting verses about Sanctification (the topic we all AGREE on). Don't let this fool you. AND a related ploy, by trying to convey that they are RIGHT about Sanctification (and they are, btw) and ERGO must be right about Justification (without actually saying that). Don't let this fool you. IF the "problem" were in Sanctification, then there would have been no Reformation, no excommunications, no split - because we all AGREE on that topic (and all their points about Sanctification are entirely irrelevant to the issue and the RCC's condemnation of Protestantism); but (as the RCC itself stressed) the problem was and is in JUSTIFICATION so the Catholic trying to change the subject (a little shell game) should not fool you.


It may SEEM like a minor point.... but actually all of Christianity hinges on this point: Is Jesus the Savior or not? If salvation is simply a result of self using God's strength to be good enough, then Judaism, Islam, Bhakti Hinduism are just as valid as Christianity, indeed Christianity is just one variation on the same theme: We gotta save ourselves (and God helps us do that). Catholicism realized how this is a CRITICAL point - and excommunicated Luther (and others) on one point: they taught that it's Jesus who saves. Everyone always totally agreed that once Justified (enlived, etc.) we ARE to respond with our good works of love and obedience (that was NEVER, EVER an issue) but that's not what the Catholic Church so passionately rejected (the RCC fully agreed with Protestant on this), the issue (as the RCC stressed) was Justification. And of course, the entire Reformation was about this point, so insisted the RCC.



Sometimes Catholics ARE agreeing with Protestants (in which case, a full Papal apology for the Reformation is in order and we'd find them AGREEING with Protestants on this instead of the pages and pages and pages of arguments and rebukes on this) but often we SOUND more alike than we actually are.




- Josiah



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[MennoSota]

Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace. Christians do nothing, apart from God’s grace, that contributes to their salvation. Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace. Catholics believe a response of faith and works is a part of one's salvation; consider what is written in Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love”

Notice that faith works through love. Faith is a gift of God. God is love. Salvation and faith are all of God.
Anyone whom God has gifted with faith will respond because God causes them to respond. God causes them to do the works of faith. It's all God, nothing of our doing.

 

[Josiah]

Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace.

Notice that faith works through love. Faith is a gift of God. God is love. Salvation and faith are all of God.
Anyone whom God has gifted with faith will respond because God causes them to respond. God causes them to do the works of faith. It's all God, nothing of our doing.

MennoSota, I think you missed what our esteemed brother stated....




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ephesians 4 begins with this... As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

The end of Ephesians 4 is this: And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Sanctified living happens because we were first forgiven by God because of Jesus.

Sanctified living comes from the grace of God; does anybody dispute that? I can't think of anybody here who does. Yet striving to live a holy life is part of a Christian's calling in Christ. As the holy scripture says "Be ye holy for I the Lord am holy". It is spiritually good and morally refreshing to at least try to be holy. And we should never forget that God promises to enable Christians to endure temptations so that they can live a holy life in Christ.

 

[Lamb]

Sanctified living comes from the grace of God; does anybody dispute that? I can't think of anybody here who does. Yet striving to live a holy life is part of a Christian's calling in Christ. As the holy scripture says "Be ye holy for I the Lord am holy". It is spiritually good and morally refreshing to at least try to be holy. And we should never forget that God promises to enable Christians to endure temptations so that they can live a holy life in Christ.

Of course we should strive to follow God's law, but that is because we have salvation through Christ. Not to gain anything from it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course we should strive to follow God's law, but that is because we have salvation through Christ. Not to gain anything from it.

This thread is about works of grace rather than "salvation and who is responsible for it".

 

[Lamb]

This thread is about works of grace rather than "salvation and who is responsible for it".

It's always good to clarify thoroughly though

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's always good to clarify thoroughly though

Clarify what and for what purpose in a thread about works of grace? And for whom is the clarification intended?

 

[Lamb]

Clarify what and for what purpose in a thread about works of grace? And for whom is the clarification intended?

Clarifying that works are not for salvation for all the world to see.

 

[Josiah]

Clarifying that works are not for salvation for all the world to see.

It would be good the opening poster to clarify that Luther was right: We are JUSTIFIED exclusively by what Jesus does..... we are SANCTIFIED by the works WE do empowered and directed by the Holy Spirit and the faith GIVEN to us at Justification.
Grace justifies.... and then it empowers us to live the life given to us. As Luther said (and as SO upset the RC denomination).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Clarifying that works are not for salvation for all the world to see.

Just in case it was too subtle for them to figure out from reading holy scripture for themselves?

Just in case people forgot what this thread is about - and it is not about demarcation disputes between God and humankind - here what the thread started with:

Ephesians 4:17, 20-24 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, ... 20 But ye did not so learn Christ; 21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus: 22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit; 23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

The way we learn Christ is by doing as well as hearing. The doing is essential.​

 

[TangledWeb]

Grace is generous giving. It does not matter if the person deserves kindness or not. It does not matter is the person works hard or not. All that matters is that the giver chooses to give generously.

Matthew 20:1-16 1 "The kingdom of heaven is like the father of a family who went out in early morning to lead workers into his vineyard. 2 Then, having made an agreement with the workers for one denarius per day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace. 4 And he said to them, "You may go into my vineyard, too, and what I will give you will be just." 5 So they went forth. But again, he went out about the sixth, and about the ninth hour, and he acted similarly. 6 Yet truly, about the eleventh hour, he went out and found others standing, and he said to them, "Why have you stood here idle all day?" 7 They say to him, "Because no one has hired us." He said to them, "You also may go into my vineyard." 8 And when evening had arrived, the lord of the vineyard said to his manager, "Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last, even to the first." 9 And so, when those who had arrived about the eleventh hour came forward, each received a single denarius. 10 Then when the first ones also came forward, they considered that they would receive more. But they, too, received one denarius. 11 And upon receiving it, they murmured against the father of the family, 12 saying, "These last have worked for one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who worked bearing the weight and heat of the day." 13 But responding to one of them, he said: "Friend, I caused you no injury. Did you not agree with me to one denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go. But it is my will to give to this last, just as to you. 15 And is it not lawful for me to do what I will? Or is your eye wicked because I am good?" 16 So then, the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. For many are called, but few are chosen."
​

See Matthew 20:1-16 for why it is not true that "If a person has to earn your action on their behalf, the action you provide is not an action of grace". The parable teaches what grace really is.

The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works Additionally, nowhere in the holy scriptures is it teaught that we are saved by “faith alone.” The only place in all of the holy scriptures where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24 and that verse it says that we are not justified by faith alone. The holy scriptures say very clearly that we are not saved by faith alone. Works do play a part in salvation. Numerous passages in the new testament that teach about the last judgement say that Christians will be judged by their works. Romans 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 20 and 22, 2 Corinthians 5, and many more passages teach that works play a role in the last judgement. Faith alone cannot save and that may be partly why 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith.

Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace. Christians do nothing, apart from God’s grace, that contributes to their salvation. Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace. Catholics believe a response of faith and works is a part of one's salvation; consider what is written in Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love” Faith working through love is what matters and that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.

The parable you have chosen to use is one that proves that no one receives what he thinks he deserves or what they believe others deserved comparing to themselves and the generosity of the Lord is given to us even though we don't deserve it.

 

[Josiah]

The parable you have chosen to use is one that proves that no one receives what he thinks he deserves or what they believe others deserved comparing to themselves and the generosity of the Lord is given to us even though we don't deserve it.

I agree.

Matthew 20:1-16 (that our Catholic brother ODDLY quotes) destroys the whole point of Catholic soteriology and the whole concept that justification depends on OUR works (empowered by God) and not God's mercy/grace. I think our brother simply shot himself in the foot, proving himself very wrong.



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