THE HIDDENESS OF CHRIST

[Arsenios]

Deut 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day,
it is not hidden from thee,
neither is it far off.

Psalm 51:6
Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
and in the hidden part
Thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Psalm 83:3
They have taken crafty counsel against Thy people,
and consulted against Thy hidden ones.

Isaiah 45:3
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness,
and hidden riches of secret places,
that thou mayest know that I, the LORD,
which call thee by thy name,
am the God of Israel.

Matt 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;
The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.

Matt 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man hath found, he hideth,
and for joy thereof
goeth and selleth all that he hath,
and buyeth that field.

Luke 13:21
It is like leaven,
which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.

1Cor 2:7
But we speak the Wisdom of God in a Mystery,
even the Hidden Wisdom,
which God ordained before the world
unto our glory:

1Peter 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart,
in that which is not corruptible,
even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit,
which is in the sight of God of great price.

Eph 3:9
And to make all men see
what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world
hath been hid in God,
Who created all things
by Jesus Christ:

The life of Christ was hidden, as we in Him are also hidden, from the world which hates us...
His coming into the world was concealed...
The world tried to destroy Him...

His Virgin Birth was hidden...
He was concealed among "brothers and sisters" in Joseph's family...
For He was concealed as Joseph's son...
In a marriage of concealment to Joseph...
Then He was hidden in Egypt...
And then in his family he remained hidden...
Until He came forth to John the Baptist for Baptism...
He was then hidden in His Passion...
He was hidden in His Death on the Cross...
He was received into Hades hidden as dead...
And there destroyed the power of Hades...
And bodily arose from the dead...
Plundering Hades Spoils...

We are hidden in Christ...
Leavening our lump...
Until Christ brings us forth...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Deut 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day,
it is not hidden from thee,
neither is it far off.

Psalm 51:6
Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
and in the hidden part
Thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Psalm 83:3
They have taken crafty counsel against Thy people,
and consulted against Thy hidden ones.

Isaiah 45:3
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness,
and hidden riches of secret places,
that thou mayest know that I, the LORD,
which call thee by thy name,
am the God of Israel.

Matt 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;
The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.

Matt 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man hath found, he hideth,
and for joy thereof
goeth and selleth all that he hath,
and buyeth that field.

Luke 13:21
It is like leaven,
which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.

1Cor 2:7
But we speak the Wisdom of God in a Mystery,
even the Hidden Wisdom,
which God ordained before the world
unto our glory:

1Peter 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart,
in that which is not corruptible,
even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit,
which is in the sight of God of great price.

Eph 3:9
And to make all men see
what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world
hath been hid in God,
Who created all things
by Jesus Christ:

The life of Christ was hidden, as we in Him are also hidden, from the world which hates us...
His coming into the world was concealed...
The world tried to destroy Him...

His Virgin Birth was hidden...
He was concealed among "brothers and sisters" in Joseph's family...
For He was concealed as Joseph's son...
In a marriage of concealment to Joseph...
Then He was hidden in Egypt...
And then in his family he remained hidden...
Until He came forth to John the Baptist for Baptism...
He was then hidden in His Passion...
He was hidden in His Death on the Cross...
He was received into Hades hidden as dead...
And there destroyed the power of Hades...
And bodily arose from the dead...
Plundering Hades Spoils...

We are hidden in Christ...
Leavening our lump...
Until Christ brings us forth...

Arsenios

You are teaching election. Good.

 

[Arsenios]

You are teaching election. Good.

The doctrine of Christ's Hiddeness accounts for His camoflage in Joseph's family as but another family member conceived by Joseph and Mary, when the truth was utterly different, where the marriage was not a marriage, and conception was not human conception, for Christ was born of the Blessed Virgin, and not of the Blessed Former Virgin...

I happen to be a fan of espionage novels, and deep undercover agents, in desperate life and death encounters that determine major worldly outcomes, and one could neither conceive not write a more complete "undercover" operation than that of Christ coming to save the world that hated Him... And the world was after Him even as He was being born, and He stayed hidden and from the sight of the hateful world He had come to save until age 30, and once His Ministry began, nothing could stop Him, for by then He was moving in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and could move through His enemies without being detected... He was not all that publicly charismatic, nor did He want to be... He asked Peter and the other Disciples "Who do PEOPLE say that I am?" For He wanted to know how effective His concealment was, even though He knew it as God... But THEY needed to know...

Paul tells us Election is, from God's perspective, based on God's Fore-knowledge, because He sees the end in the beginning, and the beginning from the end, so He knows ahead of time who will do what and how it will come about... And based on this, He makes Providence for His Holy Ones, but what I have been seeing is that He gives MORE Provendar for those NOT His Holy Ones... And the reason seems to be that the Holy Ones will not need so much of God's Provisioning... They seem able to do more with less, even a lot less... Perhaps they might stumble and fall were they given more, I don't know... And the one's refusing His Salvation are given more and more provision, and they still just cling to self-aggrandizement and loss, rather than entering into a life of faith and repentance...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The doctrine of Christ's Hiddeness accounts for His camoflage in Joseph's family as but another family member conceived by Joseph and Mary, when the truth was utterly different, where the marriage was not a marriage, and conception was not human conception, for Christ was born of the Blessed Virgin, and not of the Blessed Former Virgin...

I happen to be a fan of espionage novels, and deep undercover agents, in desperate life and death encounters that determine major worldly outcomes, and one could neither conceive not write a more complete "undercover" operation than that of Christ coming to save the world that hated Him... And the world was after Him even as He was being born, and He stayed hidden and save, and once His Ministry began, nothing could stop Him, for by then He was moving in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and could move through His enemies without being detected... He was not all that publicly charismatic, nor did He want to be... He asked Peter and the other Disciples "Who do PEOPLE say that I am?" For He wanted to know how effective His concealment was, even though He knew it as God...

Paul tells us Election is, from God's perspective, based on God's Fore-knowledge, because He sees the end in the beginning, and the beginning from the end, so He knows ahead of time who will do what and how it will come about... And based on this, He makes Providence for His Holy Ones, but what I have been seeing is that He gives MORE Provendar for those NOT His Holy Ones... And the reason seems to be that the Holy Ones will not need so much of God's Provisioning... They seem able to do more with less, even a lot less... Perhaps they might stumble and fall were they given more, I don't know... And the one's refusing His Salvation are given more and more provision, and they still just cling to self-aggrandizement and loss, rather than entering into a life of faith and repentance...

Arsenios

Pure speculation in your post.

 

[Arsenios]

Pure speculation in your post.

Oh there is no question that Christ was hidden, and that He had to be hidden...

The world hated Christ before it hated us...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Oh there is no question that Christ was hidden, and that He had to be hidden...

The world hated Christ before it hated us...

Arsenios

Again...speculation.

If we go to scripture we see that those whom God elects hear his voice and follow the shepherd. He's not hidden.
We read that the world doesn't even seek God.
When you can express your thoughts with scripture it will help your argument.

 

[Lamb]

It's very true that the Gospel is hidden...but God reveals it to us by His Word so that we might believe and have salvation. God's work is hidden because we sometimes take that glory for ourselves of what happens instead of seeing that the blessings are from Him (hidden from the world). Our identity as Christians is often hidden under disgrace as we suffer for our faith in persecution from the world. So it's true that there is a hiddeness of Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

It's very true that the Gospel is hidden...
but God reveals it to us by His Word so that we might believe and have salvation.
God's work is hidden because we sometimes take that glory for ourselves of what happens
instead of seeing that the blessings are from Him (hidden from the world).
Our identity as Christians is often hidden under disgrace
as we suffer for our faith in persecution from the world.
So it's true that there is a hiddeness of Christ.

The Deut. quote (above) affirms your point:
Deut 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day,
it is not hidden from thee,
neither is it far off.

It is hiding in plain sight - It is not far off - Indeed it is at hand...

But when Christ preached the Gospel, it is important to hear the extensive use He made of Parables... So that the Gospel of the Kingdom could be proclaimed openly in simple words that were hiding their meaning in plain sight... Even the Disciples, "slow of heart" as Christ called them, struggled to understand these Parables, and they asked much for Him to speak plainly, and on occassion He did so... Hiding in plain sight, in simplicity, in humility, speaking the truth...

Do you know how many of the Parables are about the Kingdom of God? "The Kingdom of Heaven can be likened to a..." Do you know how many Parables there are in the Bible? Do you know the percentage that are of the Kingdom? (fwiw, I don't know either - I just know that most if not all are of Christ's Kingdom..." And I would ask you: How many of these are about how man does nothing and God does it all? And are not these Parables the Way that Christ presented and preached the Gospel? And yet here we find ourselves listening for hours to preachers who are all but human beings explain their human understanding of Christ's Gospel in long sermons that take up most of the worship service... And we look to "Paul's Gospel" to find out what the Gospel is when he is writing pastoral letters addressing specific issues in specific Churches...

Yet Christ did not preach the Bible which was not yet written - He preached the Kingdom of God - The very Kingdom John the Baptizer of Christ proclaimed and initiated people into repentance by baptizing them in the Jordan... To make straight the Way of Christ... He USED the Bible to PERSUADE people, to correct them, to correct Satan... The Bible is a useful and Holy Book... But it is flesh and blood in Union with God that IS Salvation, and THAT Union walks in great Power on this earth, and is unconcerned with what the world does to it... It is not yet the Ascended Flesh and Blood of our Savior, but it is no longer ruled by the powers of darkness and death... It walks by what cannot be seen with the eyes, nor heard with the ears, nor sensed by touch... It walks in Faith KNOWING God and scorning worldly cares... There are not a lot of these... There are always some...

And they are hidden in Christ...

And some are not...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Again...speculation.

If we go to scripture we see that those whom God elects hear his voice and follow the shepherd. He's not hidden.
We read that the world doesn't even seek God.
When you can express your thoughts with scripture it will help your argument.

This thread is not about election...

It is about what is hidden of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

This thread is not about election...

It is about what is hidden of Christ...

Arsenios

It is currently about your supposition without biblical support. Support your supposition with biblical text.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Brother Arsenios, did you know that saint Thomas More wrote a book called "The Sadness of Christ"? I believe that he wrote it - and some other books too - during his imprisonment for not signing an oath created by Henry VIII's servants as a recognition of the King's claim to be "head of the Church in England" and also by implication legitimising the King's divorce. It is a good read. It deals also with matters touched upon in this thread.

This book was the last that St. Thomas More wrote in the Tower of London before he was executed for standing firm in his Catholic faith. In it, he explores the Gospel passages that depict the agony of Our Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane. He depicts Christ as a model of virtue in the face of suffering and persecution. And along the way, he includes valuable and eternally relevant reflections on prayer, courage, friendship, statesmanship, and more.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Another book more directly related to this thread's topic is

The idea of Christ hidden within the life of Christians who sanctify themselves by obedience to the Lord and tireless work to bring the knowledge, mercy, and wisdom of Christ to the world is a theme often covered by monastics because that is part of the calling.

 

[TangledWeb]

The ones who first hide as found in scripture are Adam and Eve after the serpant convinced them that God was hiding something from them and they could only be like God truly if they ate of the forbidden fruit. That they did and then they discovered they were naked and hid from God, the God we cannot hide from. From then God became hidden from man not because He had something to hide but because He wanted man to find Him where God wills man to find Him instead of where man thinks God should be found.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The ones who first hide as found in scripture are Adam and Eve after the serpant convinced them that God was hiding something from them and they could only be like God truly if they ate of the forbidden fruit. That they did and then they discovered they were naked and hid from God, the God we cannot hide from. From then God became hidden from man not because He had something to hide but because He wanted man to find Him where God wills man to find Him instead of where man thinks God should be found.

Do you think that hiding from God is being hidden? I have some doubts about achieving success when hiding from God but I am very confident that God can hide and be hidden in creation. I think of a song that refers to Christ's incarnation as being veiled in flesh. That was a very subtle and effective way for God to hide in creation. No one really knew who he was unless he revealed it to them. But your point is correct in asserting that Adam and Eve tried to hide their nakedness from God. It's an interesting aspect of sin and knowledge isn't it?

 

[psalms 91]

Do you think that hiding from God is being hidden? I have some doubts about achieving success when hiding from God but I am very confident that God can hide and be hidden in creation. I think of a song that refers to Christ's incarnation as being veiled in flesh. That was a very subtle and effective way for God to hide in creation. No one really knew who he was unless he revealed it to them. But your point is correct in asserting that Adam and Eve tried to hide their nakedness from God. It's an interesting aspect of sin and knowledge isn't it?

Thus why sinners love darkness and why Christ is light with no shadows

 

[Arsenios]

It is currently about your supposition without biblical support. Support your supposition with biblical text.

No my Brother...

If you wish to discuss your IDEA about me, you are free to start your own thread...

This thread is about the hiddeness of Christ...

Your actions here are a derailment from the topic...

Thank you for your co-operation...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The ones who first hide as found in scripture are Adam and Eve after the serpant convinced them that God was hiding something from them and they could only be like God truly if they ate of the forbidden fruit. That they did and then they discovered they were naked and hid from God, the God we cannot hide from. From then God became hidden from man not because He had something to hide but because He wanted man to find Him where God wills man to find Him instead of where man thinks God should be found.

A profound point -

God became hidden from man who first tried to hide from God...

And it is precisely in this garb that Christ returned to reclaim His Creation...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

No my Brother...

If you wish to discuss your IDEA about me, you are free to start your own thread...

This thread is about the hiddeness of Christ...

Your actions here are a derailment from the topic...

Thank you for your co-operation...

Arsenios

There is nothing to discuss if scripture does not prove your assertion. Until then your assertion is just a supposition.

 

[Arsenios]

Another book more directly related to this thread's topic is

The idea of Christ hidden within the life of Christians who sanctify themselves by obedience to the Lord and tireless work to bring the knowledge, mercy, and wisdom of Christ to the world is a theme often covered by monastics because that is part of the calling.

The ultimate hide is humility, I should think...
Acquiescing to scorn and defilement...
Without a care...

It is how Christians live in the Middle East under Islamic Rule...
Much as the black race lived in the south prior to M.L. King...
It is how Christians are called to live...
1Cor 4:12
And labour,
working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless;
being persecuted, we suffer it:

There is a small second century tract about the Christian's mode of life in the non-Christian cultures of the time...
By Mathetes to Diognetus:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-roberts.html

The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus

CHAPTER I -- OCCASION OF THE EPISTLE.

Since I see thee, most excellent Diognetus, exceedingly desirous to learn the mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians, and inquiring very carefully and earnestly concerning them, what God they trust in, and what form of religion they observe, so as all to look down upon the world itself, and despise death, while they neither esteem those to be gods that are reckoned such by the Greeks, nor hold to the superstition of the Jews; and what is the affection which they cherish among themselves; and why, in fine, this new kind or practice [of piety] has only now entered into the world, and not long ago; I cordially welcome this thy desire, and I implore God, who enables us both to speak and to hear, to grant to me so to speak, that, above all, I may hear you have been edified, and to you so to hear, that I who speak may have no cause of regret for having done so.
....
For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

This is a snapshot of what the Faith looked like just after 100AD, when John was writing Revelation on Patmos...

How far we have fallen since then!

Regaining this Faith is worth everything we have...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is nothing to discuss if scripture does not prove your assertion. Until then your assertion is just a supposition.

Thank-you...

Arsenios