Once saved always saved?

[MoreCoffee]

There is no point in a discussion when one cannot rely on the good faith in one's interlocutor's arguments.

 

[Alithis]

There is no point in a discussion when one cannot rely on the good faith in one's interlocutor's arguments.

who said im discussing ? im laying out what the bible states very plainly .. if you don't like it take it up with he who inspired its writings .

do you have a grandfather by the way ? , what makes him your grandfather ?. oh hes your blood relative isnt he .. hmmm interesting isn't it
trace his relatives back far enough and you'll get to Adam ..
this is not so of the lord Jesus he was not born of the blood of Adam and the womb around him did not mingle adams blood with his either .. he was born without sin because he had no sin in him .

this is why he alone was found worthy and without spot or blemish and could bare to the cross the sins of all others . and NO ONE ELSE could.
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- unsubscribed for the sake of the peace of the forum

 

[MoreCoffee]

who said im discussing ? im laying out what the bible states very plainly .. if you don't like it take it up with he who inspired its writings . ...

Do not fear, it is not easy to confuse opinions with the very word of God.

 

[charis en excelcis]

Having observed carefully the discussions, I think everyone knows who discusses in good faith. But our love for one another must allow forgiveness and kindness and our trust of the Holy Spirit must assure us that He can speak where our voice is not heard.

 

[Alithis]

Do not fear, it is not easy to confuse opinions with the very word of God.

back to the word of God and off the insinuated insults please.

 

[Hammster]

That's not what the parable said. It didn't say "he wasn't really saved". That's twisting what Jesus said.

The Sower Explained

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the [j]word, immediately he [k]falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the [l]world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”



Do you not remember that faith brings joy?

True believers bear fruit. Fruit was born by the seed that fell on the fourth soil. It's the good soil.

There's no part of our salvation that's of us. It is all secured by the cross. So even the soil preparation isn't of us.

 

[Alithis]

True believers bear fruit. Fruit was born by the seed that fell on the fourth soil. It's the good soil.

There's no part of our salvation that's of us. It is all secured by the cross. So even the soil preparation isn't of us.

a welcome swing back to the topic ..

what are we saved from and saved to .... ?
are we saved to a fluffy cloud of inactivity ? or are we saved from a prison that we might go forth and be and do what we were created to be and do ..

if the actions of doing the opposite of what we were created to be and do led us to sin and sin to Unrighteousness and eternal separation from god ,

then, having been saved by grace to go ,do and be what we were created to be and do ,-- we then return to doing the opposite .. why would the resulting effect be any different -we would be led to sin Unrighteousness and eternal separation from god all over again .

if we do not repent of it .
(though im beginning to see more and more that the term repent has been vastly weakened in the modern western age . people seem to think repent means .. confess your sin ask forgiveness then do so again every time you go and do that same sin again . which displays there is no intent to "cease" the sin or perhaps more fairly .. no desire to cease .

when one truly desires to cease from sin ..they cry out to god with a very fervent and honest heart with faith that he is able to bring them to a place that they walk free of the sin and simply do not commit it any more - after al he did not shed his life on the cross so that we could continue serving sin .. but that we could forsake it and serve him in love .
so if we by our action ,show no desire to forsake sin and continue to submit our bodies to it .. then it remains our master and lead to unrighteousness and death . salvation in any part is not of us .. but what we then do with the new life he has gifted us ..is every part us .


i say stop saying sorry for the sin you know your going to do again because you love doing it and start repenting and asking god to do in you what you've never been able to do .overcome it - he will do what you ask of him when you ask in faith believing - I absolutely KNOW this to be the truth .
but as long as we love sin more the we love god then we will continue to desire it and it will continue to rule over us .. We must DIE to it and it to us ..for only love leads one to lay down his life for another .. the lord jesus laid down his for us .. are we wiling to lay down out life for him? are we really? be careful to say yes if your not even wiling to lay down one single sin .
--

sorry hammster that wasn't "at you " lol ..i digressed (when dont i haha)

 

[Brighten04]

True believers bear fruit. Fruit was born by the seed that fell on the fourth soil. It's the good soil.

There's no part of our salvation that's of us. It is all secured by the cross. So even the soil preparation isn't of us.

I agree.As I think about the soils in the parable of the sower though and apply it to my own Christian walk from childhood until now, I see where I have been all types of soil. :lol: As a child believing was very easy. It took a lot of work for my teachers but they pushed the Word. I am glad though for the Word sown into my heart as a child. I believe it held me when I stumbled through teenage years and young adulthood.As I look back I KNOW our Father was right there, even at the lowest point in my life. I hear Lord Jesus saying, let the children come to me and do not forbid them. Sometimes adults will not let children confess their faith and be baptized. But, I got through without getting caught in too many snares, and for that I give praise to our Father in Heaven.

 

[Brighten04]

a welcome swing back to the topic ..

what are we saved from and saved to .... ?
are we saved to a fluffy cloud of inactivity ? or are we saved from a prison that we might go forth and be and do what we were created to be and do ..

if the actions of doing the opposite of what we were created to be and do led us to sin and sin to Unrighteousness and eternal separation from god ,

then, having been saved by grace to go ,do and be what we were created to be and do ,-- we then return to doing the opposite .. why would the resulting effect be any different -we would be led to sin Unrighteousness and eternal separation from god all over again .

if we do not repent of it .
(though im beginning to see more and more that the term repent has been vastly weakened in the modern western age . people seem to think repent means .. confess your sin ask forgiveness then do so again every time you go and do that same sin again . which displays there is no intent to "cease" the sin or perhaps more fairly .. no desire to cease .

when one truly desires to cease from sin ..they cry out to god with a very fervent and honest heart with faith that he is able to bring them to a place that they walk free of the sin and simply do not commit it any more - after al he did not shed his life on the cross so that we could continue serving sin .. but that we could forsake it and serve him in love .
so if we by our action ,show no desire to forsake sin and continue to submit our bodies to it .. then it remains our master and lead to unrighteousness and death . salvation in any part is not of us .. but what we then do with the new life he has gifted us ..is every part us .


i say stop saying sorry for the sin you know your going to do again because you love doing it and start repenting and asking god to do in you what you've never been able to do .overcome it - he will do what you ask of him when you ask in faith believing - I absolutely KNOW this to be the truth .
but as long as we love sin more the we love god then we will continue to desire it and it will continue to rule over us .. We must DIE to it and it to us ..for only love leads one to lay down his life for another .. the lord jesus laid down his for us .. are we wiling to lay down out life for him? are we really? be careful to say yes if your not even wiling to lay down one single sin .
--

sorry hammster that wasn't "at you " lol ..i digressed (when dont i haha)

I believe Jesus' blood blots out all of our iniquities. I believe when He saved me, He claimed me as His property. Nothing, not even me, can snatch me away from Him. It is all Him and I thank Him for dwelling in this clay pot.

 

[Alithis]

I believe Jesus' blood blots out all of our iniquities. I believe when He saved me, He claimed me as His property. Nothing, not even me, can snatch me away from Him. It is all Him and I thank Him for dwelling in this clay pot.

of course because who in their right mind (or heart) would turn away from such grace such love ..except one who had not truly turned to it in the first place ...

ie -" they went out from us because they were not of us, if they had been of us,they would not have gone out from us (epistle of john .. pp )

as you walk around this topic and view it from many sides -- each aspect is correct even seemingly opposing ones -but one constant remains the same ..

"if you abide " and any true believer does abide in him..


but does his blood blot out an unrepentant sin i did after i was first saved .. like if i knowingly disobey the holy Spirit and get angry and hateful and then murder the person.. or must i repent of the hate before it becomes the murder and if i do not repent am i still saved being that ..if i do not forgive ..i will not be forgiven.. can a believer who refuses to forgive his brother .. be forgiven by God ..? according to the lord jesus .. no! .. so you see while i see the correct aspect of what you said .. i also see the correct aspect of what the lord Jesus said .

hmmm i honestly am beginning to think- this entire type of debate originates in that same common error .. doctrinal terminology that is not unambiguously present in the scriptures .. ,for nowhere in the scriptures does the term "once saved you are always saved " exist .. so this externally introduced terminology is become a source of endless contention..
and i must consider ..if it is a source of endless connection. it cannot have originated from Holy Spirit .

and that makes me do an extra large HHHMMMMMMMM - this is a consideration that came to me just now as i w typing and reflecting on the topic

im beginning to see a lot of the doctrinal terminology we end up in division over ... is not scripturally originated but externally introduced .. and the fruit it produces is debate argument and strife . I am openly hard on the rcc for doing that .. why should i be any less harsh if my own denominational affiliation does the same thing ?

these externally introduced terminologies seem to have arisen with the very intent to divide- and for a great part of the time succeed well in doing so..

back to the scripture i say .. back to what it does say in a clear and unambiguous way .. back to the basics we go .
there we are safe
there we agree
there we have unity and truth in love .

 

[Brighten04]

of course because who in their right mind (or heart) would turn away from such grace such love ..except one who had not truly turned to it in the first place ...

ie -" they went out from us because they were not of us, if they had been of us,they would not have gone out from us (epistle of john .. pp )

as you walk around this topic and view it from many sides -- each aspect is correct even seemingly opposing ones -but one constant remains the same ..

"if you abide " and any true believer does abide in him..

Amen!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe Jesus' blood blots out all of our iniquities. I believe when He saved me, He claimed me as His property. Nothing, not even me, can snatch me away from Him. It is all Him and I thank Him for dwelling in this clay pot.

Do you believe that it is possible to fall into unbelief for one who professes faith and believes himself (or herself) to be in the body of Christ?

 

[psalms 91]

Do you believe that it is possible to fall into unbelief for one who professes faith and believes himself (or herself) to be in the body of Christ?

I believe that as scripture backs it up, look at Hebrews chapter six

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you believe that it is possible to fall into unbelief for one who professes faith and believes himself (or herself) to be in the body of Christ?

I believe that as scripture backs it up, look at Hebrews chapter six

I agree that it appears to be possible and that Hebrews does seem to point to it as both possible and real. As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away -- it is impossible for them to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him. A field that drinks up the rain that has fallen frequently on it, and yields the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, receives God's blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is worthless, and near to being cursed. It will end by being burnt. (Hebrews 6:4-8)

 

[Brighten04]

Do you believe that it is possible to fall into unbelief for one who professes faith and believes himself (or herself) to be in the body of Christ?

This is my own personal belief. Others may believe differently. There is a lot of unbelief in the Body Of Christ today. And there are a lot of people who follow erroneous teachings who never get baptized in the Holy Spirit like at Pentecost in Acts 2, like at Cornelius' house in Acts 10. IMHO man has watered down the pure Gospel so much so that people are disappointed with our Father. If someone falls away today, it is more than likely they were never saved so there is great hope for them. I cannot believe and will not believe that anyone having the indwelling Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and Acts 10 will fall away. But, there are people who have head knowledge, who have gone through the motions of "Christianity" which I call "Churchanity" who will fall away. There is hope for them also. The Gospel is good news! That good news is Jesus Christ died, shed his blood to take away the sin of the world while we were yet sinners. That is huge! But religion makes it about us. It is not about us and what we did. Our Father proved by the Law that man does a poor job of following rules. Because He loved man so much, He nailed the Law to the cross with Lord Jesus and He buried it. But people still believe that was not enough. It is sad. But I have hope.The Word will not return to Him void. It will accomplish His will.

 

[psalms 91]

This is my own personal belief. Others may believe differently. There is a lot of unbelief in the Body Of Christ today. And there are a lot of people who follow erroneous teachings who never get baptized in the Holy Spirit like at Pentecost in Acts 2, like at Cornelius' house in Acts 10. IMHO man has watered down the pure Gospel so much so that people are disappointed with our Father. If someone falls away today, it is more than likely they were never saved so there is great hope for them. I cannot believe and will not believe that anyone having the indwelling Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and Acts 10 will fall away. But, there are people who have head knowledge, who have gone through the motions of "Christianity" which I call "Churchanity" who will fall away. There is hope for them also. The Gospel is good news! That good news is Jesus Christ died, shed his blood to take away the sin of the world while we were yet sinners. That is huge! But religion makes it about us. It is not about us and what we did. Our Father proved by the Law that man does a poor job of following rules. Because He loved man so much, He nailed the Law to the cross with Lord Jesus and He buried it. But people still believe that was not enough. It is sad. But I have hope.The Word will not return to Him void. It will accomplish His will.

Israel was a perfect picture of it, they had the holy spirit leading them through the wilderness and because of sin after a period of time they did not have it anymore, this happened in Israel at different times and at one point God left.

 

[Brighten04]

I believe that as scripture backs it up, look at Hebrews chapter six

Hebrews 6 is a very difficult passage, and so many misunderstand it. Let us look at it.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The big AND and the big IF that has tripped up believers for too long. Read it slowly. It is obvious to me he proves how once you have all of the AND'S the IF is impossible.Before our Father will lose anyone, He will take them out of this world. Why do I believe this is what it is saying? Because I believe He is able to keep me from falling. I believe what Jude says in his benediction. And I believe it with my whole heart.

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Now, if our Father cannot do what this word says, then this word is a lie. No, our Father cannot lie.

 

[Brighten04]

Israel was a perfect picture of it, they had the holy spirit leading them through the wilderness and because of sin after a period of time they did not have it anymore, this happened in Israel at different times and at one point God left.

Israel was under the LAW. It is based on self effort.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Israel was under the LAW. It is based on self effort.

Abraham believed and he lived before the gospel was preached. His belief was not self effort, right? In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'. (James 2:23) Enoch, before the flood came, believed God and God received him into heaven, that was not self effort, right? It was because of his faith that Enoch was taken up and did not experience death: he was no more, because God took him; because before his assumption he was acknowledged to have pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5) Noah believed God and was saved from the flood, that was not self effort, right? It was through his faith that Noah, when he had been warned by God of something that had never been seen before, took care to build an ark to save his family. His faith was a judgement on the world, and he was able to claim the uprightness which comes from faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Rahab believed God and was saved from the destruction of Jericho and that was not self effort, right? It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute welcomed the spies and so was not killed with the unbelievers. (Hebrews 11:31)

 

[Brighten04]

Abraham believed and he lived before the gospel was preached. His belief was not self effort, right? In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'. (James 2:23) Enoch, before the flood came, believed God and God received him into heaven, that was not self effort, right? It was because of his faith that Enoch was taken up and did not experience death: he was no more, because God took him; because before his assumption he was acknowledged to have pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5) Noah believed God and was saved from the flood, that was not self effort, right? It was through his faith that Noah, when he had been warned by God of something that had never been seen before, took care to build an ark to save his family. His faith was a judgement on the world, and he was able to claim the uprightness which comes from faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Rahab believed God and was saved from the destruction of Jericho and that was not self effort, right? It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute welcomed the spies and so was not killed with the unbelievers. (Hebrews 11:31)

Abraham was not under the LAW. The Law came by Moses. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.