Justification

[Arsenios]

I had confidence you'd work it out.

You DOG!!!

Finally!

Someone like ME!!

It was a great answer, that 100-100 business!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

If man only gives 99.9% does that discount him from heaven? What's the cut-off line? Does God ever go under 100%? Does God ever go over 100%? Where do we find the statistical data in the Bible? Is there a spreadsheet or a rubric available?

No need...

Wanna be a lazy Christian? Do only 3% - You will have a 3% share awaiting you...
IF...
You do not FALL to the demon who deceived you into thinking 3% is a good idea...

Exercise diligence, my Brother... Always push a little more for Christ if you can...

Paul, for all his writings, kept working for a living, to gain the more in Heaven...
Sewing tents, you know - Makes me want to take up sewing!

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

You DOG!!!

Finally!

Someone like ME!!

It was a great answer, that 100-100 business!

Arsenios

It's a good thing to have confidence in others. If it is warranted then you'll not be disappointed and if not then there's an opportunity to help. It's also always possible to be mistaken one's self and then the others can help you. God is good.

 

[Josiah]

2 Timothy 2:25 disagrees with you
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

Repentance is gift talk...it comes from God and turns us to Him in faith.

Let's see if I understand this "Dead atheists repent - so God justifies them" theology....


One who is DEAD in his trespasses and sins (and how much can DEAD people do?).... one who CANNOT even chant the words "Jesus is Lord" with ANY meaning..... one who DENIES that God even exists..... one who DENIES that this non-existent Myth has any mercy ..... one who DENIES that Jesus was anything but a mislead egomanaic..... one who DENIES that God has any Law or any wisdom.... one who DENIES God and upholds SELF.... THAT one will (of course) fall to his knees before the Almighty God, state his profound sorrow for how he has offended the Lord God and violated God's supreme wisdom and Law, look to Christ as His Savior and Redeemer in Whom there is forgiveness via the Cross and Empty Tomb, seek God's boundless mercy, receive that mercy, and reverse his ways so as to live for God. Hum. Interesting pov. I'm not sure that jibes with Scripture (or ANYTHING ELSE for that matter).


Now, again, I'm reminded of a Southern Baptist preacher I heard once (long story, but I occasionally attended a SBC church as a kid, a result of my schooling situation). Anyway, they always had an "Altar Call" at the end of every service and there was MUCH "decision" theology. But I so clearly remember a sermon. The preacher STRESSED that IF one heard that Altar Call...... and his palms are sweating.... and his heart is beating.... and his whole being is wanting to step out into the isle and come down and he's having a hard time resisting that..... THEN HE IS ALREADY a believer, HE ALREADY has faith and the Holy Spirit - gifts (that's the word he used) GIFTS of God. His coming down therefore is a testimony, a RESULT of faith, the first evidence of the "GIFT" (as he called it). Interesting theology..... not sure I disagree with him. Now, maybe repentance can be like that? It CERTAINLY is inseparable from justification (as EVERYONE agrees)..... and it even can be argued (and is) that where repentance is absent, justification is absent..... but is it true that self saves self by adequately jumping through a mess of hoops (rendering Jesus a bad joke)? Is it true that we are saved by what WE do rather than the Incarnation, Cross and Empty Tomb? Is it true that we are saved NOT by grace, NOT by faith, NOT by Christ but by our repenting? Is it true that the DEAD gives self life by doing what the dead CANNOT and WILL NOT ever do, making the Holy Spirit the Lord and Giver of nothing (and the Creed heretical)? Ah.... maybe that's looking to the wrong "savior."



A blessed Pentecost to all....



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Let's see if I understand this "Dead atheists repent - so God justifies them" theology....

Perfect description! Jesus, death on the cross, God's Word...none of that gets involved it seems since it's man 100% justifying himself. Attaboy, Josiah

 

[Andrew]

John 12: 42. Nevertheless even from among the Rulers many believed in Him. But because of the Pharisees they did not avow their belief, for fear they should be shut out from the synagogue. 43. For they loved the glory that comes from men rather than the glory that comes from God. 44. But Jesus cried aloud, "He who believes in me, believes not so much in me, as in Him who sent me; 45. and he who sees me sees Him who sent me. 46. I have come like light into the world, in order that no one who believes in me may remain in the dark. 47. And if any one hears my teachings and regards them not, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48. He who sets me at naught and does not receive my teachings is not left without a judge: the Message which I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49. Because I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me, Himself gave me a command what to say and in what words to speak. 50. And I know that His command is the Life of the Ages. What therefore I speak, I speak just as the Father has bidden me."

Luke 8: 12. Those by the way-side are those who have heard, and then the Devil comes and carries away the Message from their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke 8: 13. Those on the rock are the people who on hearing the Message receive it joyfully; but they have no root: for a time they believe, but when trial comes they fall away.

Luke 8: 14. That which fell among the thorns means those who have heard, but as they go on their way, the Message is stifled by the anxieties, wealth and gaieties of time, and they yield nothing in perfection.


(According to the words of Jesus we are saved through actual believe which would be synonimous with action/ word based on said belief in my opinion.)

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Belief is the key, we must trust that God's word is true and accept his promise 100 percent. The devil is a liar, I deal with uncertainty daily because I feel as if I fail in workmanship for God, it's as if I fall asleep and believe lies. Only when I catch myself drifting I remember "forgiveness"
The devil corners me much of the time because I live in a secluded area and at work I am surrounded by perverted and thieving- fowl mouthed peoples... It really messes with me especially as of late, working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week. I hardly have strength on Sunday and haven't been to church in about a month.
Thanks pops for those verses in Luke, I believe what it says about the devil hijacking your faith lest you believe and be saved, so true

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[ImaginaryDay2]

2 Timothy 2:25 disagrees with you
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

Repentance is gift talk...it comes from God and turns us to Him in faith.

and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

I'm sorry, but God did not repent for me. Having been given the gift of faith (work wholly of God - 100%) - one must "come to their senses" (100% - what "they" do). Please, no responses to my post about how Christ is not the Savior as a result, as there is no denial of where the gift of faith comes from and originates. Thanks.

 

[Lamb]

I'm sorry, but God did not repent for me. Having been given the gift of faith (work wholly of God - 100%) - one must "come to their senses" (100% - what "they" do). Please, no responses to my post about how Christ is not the Savior as a result, as there is no denial of where the gift of faith comes from and originates. Thanks.

Don't you see that God turned you to him?

God uses Law to bring you to contrition.

Then

God uses the Gospel to give you the good news that Jesus forgives your sins and you in faith turn to Him. Repentance is gift talk. Isn't it just like God to keep gifting his children so they may live? It's man's arrogance who leaves out God.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Imo, I think who's "rendering Jesus a bad joke" are ones who aren't adequately understanding that no-one has said that the dead can save themselves.
I think it's entertaining that the rubric of 100/100 is so often applied to other things in the Christian life (i.e. marriage), and with a hearty "amen!", but when applied to such things as our eternal fate it's made a mockery and fuel for more of the the "Jesus isn't the Savior" rhetoric.
Are we so tied up in our denominational culture that we can't (or worse, won't) consider anything that might be relevant?

 

[Lamb]

Imo, I think who's "rendering Jesus a bad joke" are ones who aren't adequately understanding that no-one has said that the dead can save themselves.
I think it's entertaining that the rubric of 100/100 is so often applied to other things in the Christian life (i.e. marriage), and with a hearty "amen!", but when applied to such things as our eternal fate it's made a mockery and fuel for more of the the "Jesus isn't the Savior" rhetoric.
Are we so tied up in our denominational culture that we can't (or worse, won't) consider anything that might be relevant?

It isn't about denominational culture at all. It's about giving credit to the one who truly deserves it...and guess what? Man does not deserve credit for his salvation/justification/atonement/forgiveness...the list goes on and on. But man keeps wanting to try to impose himself on God to make himself into a god for himself thinking that God could never do it without his assistance. Adam wanted to be a god and so it continues with man thinking they don't need God for life.

 

[Arsenios]

If God does 99% of it, then Jesus is not the Savior and the Holy Spirit is not the Giver of Life, and IMO, it is deceptive and wrong to proclaim that He is.

Amen - ONLY God CAN give God because only God has God to give...

If Jesus (as I was taught in the RCC) just "opened the door to heaven so that you can get yourself through it" and "Jesus actually saves no one but He makes it possible for all to be saved" then Jesus in not - in any sense or manner or degree - the Savior. He is the Possibility-Maker. And IMO, it is deceptive and wrong to refer to Him as Savior when it is denied that He is.

Amen - Jesus IS the Door AND the Heaven AND the Salvation of man...

If Jesus (as I was taught in the RCC) is just ONE (of very many) helpers who "helps those who help themselves" giving us the divine enabling so that we can do what we otherwise would not - then Jesus is not - in any sense or manner or degree - the Savior. He is just one of the helpers.

Indeed Jesus is found in MANY helpers...

IF Jesus did His part (the part that is ineffectual and actually causes no one to be saved) and then we add our part (the part that actually matters, the part that actually accomplishes something, the part that actually means we are a child of God and heaven-bound, then Jesus is not - in any sense or manner - the Savior. He is at most the PART Savior (the part that doesn't matter) and then (IMO) it is deceptive and wrong to call Him the Savior. He is just the PART Savior.

We ourselves add nothing to our Salvation in Christ...
Repentance merely "makes straight the Way" within us...
Repenting is the ontological asking for Salvation...
Ask and ye shall receive...

Luther lived in a world where the Gospel was often displaced - by Indulgence Sellers who wanted people to think their generous giving was the cause of their justification (not Jesus, not the Cross, not the Empty Tomb), and very often by largely ignorant and uneducated Catholic priests who simply were never taught the Gospel and thus never taught it.

While in Orthodox eyes the Latin Church is Apostate, that does not mean that there is no Salvation in Her... Error does not preclude Salvation by Christ...

Luther - a Doctor in the Church whose "job" included noting error - decried this very UNCATHOLIC teaching, teaching that violated the Council of Orange and so much more, preaching that was actually contrary to Catholicism. He is very polite in the beginning. He was very patient in the beginning. He PASSIONATELY believed that the Bishops of the Church and even the very corrupt Holy Father would be GLAD Luther noted all this and would be QUICK to correct this very unchristian, un-Catholic message (even if it MIGHT - maybe - result in lower income from the Germans). He learned - after a year or so - that he was VERY wrong. Although it took 40 years or so, the RCC chose to NOT correct the really bad unbiblical, unchristian teaching the Indulgence Sellers were preaching, they would dogmatize it. And MY experience (and it seems Albions' too) .... that of virtually every Catholic known to me... this errant preaching continues to this day. For LUTHER, it was a case of honoring Christ, of lifting high the Cross, of pointing people to the Cross rather than to their mirror. And ANYTHING that implied Jesus was irrelevant, Jesus is not the Savior, the Holy Spirit is not the giver of life, that self saves self - is DANGEROUS, DANGEROUS stuff, that highly threatens the Gospel and the Christian faith and creates a "terror of conscience". Luther knew this from personal experience, because he too had had ignorant priests in his life who had taught the same thing: self saves self (with help). Lutherans to this day are sensitive to things that undermine the Christian religion, the Gospel of Christ... and make Christianity just a slight variant of Islam on this point.

From the Orthodox perspective, Luther strained the gnat - eg Indulgences - and then promptly, even in the straining, swallowed the camel - The Bible-School Scholasticism that birthed the gnat - and turned from repentance as one's approach to the unapprochable God, and continued to embrace the fallen human intellect in its reading of the Holy Texts and its claiming the Holy Spirit as our means of theology and of the directing the Church...

God Bless Luther for his efforts to stand against what was wrong...

He was a loyal son of the Latin Church, it seems to me...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Here is a nice devotion on Repentance I posted in February: http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5019-A-Devotion-on-Repentance&highlight=repentance

 

[MennoSota]

No need...

Wanna be a lazy Christian? Do only 3% - You will have a 3% share awaiting you...
IF...
You do not FALL to the demon who deceived you into thinking 3% is a good idea...

Scripture reference?

Exercise diligence, my Brother... Always push a little more for Christ if you can...

Why? Is your salvation dependent upon the extra push? (I agree with doing more, but what is the motivation?)

Paul, for all his writings, kept working for a living, to gain the more in Heaven...
Sewing tents, you know - Makes me want to take up sewing!

Arsenios

Did Paul do it for selfish reasons, as you claim, or was their a God glorifying reason?

Arsenios, it is sad to see you man-centered view of relationship with God.

 

[Arsenios]

2 Timothy 2:25 disagrees with you
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

Repentance is gift talk...it comes from God and turns us to Him in faith.

That is also true - We become set in our evil ways and God then can grant us the repentance we need...

This Faith is a vast Mystery...

And when God does grant repentance, then after one has become accustomed to that repentance God has granted, then the granting will be withdrawn, and you will be tested in the repentance you have acquired from God according to your acquisition of God's repentance given to you...

The keyword is SYNERGY... A give and take - Because it is YOU who need to change, and it is YOU who must willingly exert the effort to change, and it is God Who determines HOW MUCH effort you even HAVE to exert, and how much willingness you have to even try... Yet you are always free to continue in Christ, OR to blow the whole thing off, burn a burger, grab a beer and the remote, and head for the couch to watch the game... God will honor both decisions in this fallen life... But not in the Age to Come...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Let's see if I understand this "Dead atheists repent - so God justifies them" theology....


One who is DEAD in his trespasses and sins (and how much can DEAD people do?).... one who CANNOT even chant the words "Jesus is Lord" with ANY meaning..... one who DENIES that God even exists..... one who DENIES that this non-existent Myth has any mercy ..... one who DENIES that Jesus was anything but a mislead egomanaic..... one who DENIES that God has any Law or any wisdom.... one who DENIES God and upholds SELF.... THAT one will (of course) fall to his knees before the Almighty God, state his profound sorrow for how he has offended the Lord God and violated God's supreme wisdom and Law, look to Christ as His Savior and Redeemer in Whom there is forgiveness via the Cross and Empty Tomb, seek God's boundless mercy, receive that mercy, and reverse his ways so as to live for God. Hum. Interesting pov. I'm not sure that jibes with Scripture (or ANYTHING ELSE for that matter).
- Josiah

It is an illogical and more so, unbiblical position to argue that a dead person can repent of his own free will.

 

[Arsenios]

It's a good thing to have confidence in others. If it is warranted then you'll not be disappointed and if not then there's an opportunity to help. It's also always possible to be mistaken one's self and then the others can help you. God is good.

Amen to that!

A.

 

[Lamb]

That is also true - We become set in our evil ways and God then can grant us the repentance we need...

This Faith is a vast Mystery...

And when God does grant repentance, then after one has become accustomed to that repentance God has granted, then the granting will be withdrawn, and you will be tested in the repentance you have acquired from God according to your acquisition of God's repentance given to you...

The keyword is SYNERGY... A give and take - Because it is YOU who need to change, and it is YOU who must willingly exert the effort to change, and it is God Who determines HOW MUCH effort you even HAVE to exert, and how much willingness you have to even try... Yet you are always free to continue in Christ, OR to blow the whole thing off, burn a burger, grab a beer and the remote, and head for the couch to watch the game... God will honor both decisions in this fallen life... But not in the Age to Come...

Arsenios

Well thank God I have a Savior who died for my selfish ways and that God keeps turning me to Him. Thanks be to God almighty who forgives me all my sin.

 

[MennoSota]

Belief is the key, we must trust that God's word is true and accept his promise 100 percent. The devil is a liar, I deal with uncertainty daily because I feel as if I fail in workmanship for God, it's as if I fall asleep and believe lies. Only when I catch myself drifting I remember "forgiveness"
The devil corners me much of the time because I live in a secluded area and at work I am surrounded by perverted and thieving- fowl mouthed peoples... It really messes with me especially as of late, working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week. I hardly have strength on Sunday and haven't been to church in about a month.
Thanks pops for those verses in Luke, I believe what it says about the devil hijacking your faith lest you believe and be saved, so true

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

"Even the demons believe..."
Until God moves to justify us, we cannot have faith. We may give intellectual ascent, but it will not be faith.

 

[MennoSota]

Imo, I think who's "rendering Jesus a bad joke" are ones who aren't adequately understanding that no-one has said that the dead can save themselves.
I think it's entertaining that the rubric of 100/100 is so often applied to other things in the Christian life (i.e. marriage), and with a hearty "amen!", but when applied to such things as our eternal fate it's made a mockery and fuel for more of the the "Jesus isn't the Savior" rhetoric.
Are we so tied up in our denominational culture that we can't (or worse, won't) consider anything that might be relevant?

Who uses that rubric? Is such a rubric biblical?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Don't you see that God turned you to him?

Yes. Completely.

God uses Law to bring you to contrition.

God uses law to show us the truth. Upon seeing the truth, contrition follows. I've experienced this many times.

Then

God uses the Gospel to give you the good news that Jesus forgives your sins and you in faith turn to Him. Repentance is gift talk. Isn't it just like God to keep gifting his children so they may live? It's man's arrogance who leaves out God.

No one has left out God. Certainly not the one who has repented. There is recognition, and attributing of, the work of faith wholly to God. I, in faith, turn to Him - in fact he made me alive to do such a thing (coming to my senses, as it were). But the question of "what must we do", was not answered by Peter saying "Nothing! God has done it". It was "Repent and be baptized". Coming to one's senses has within it a sense of what we see in a person - a behavioral (and even character) change as God begins and continues a work in them.
I recall a time years ago when my resentment and anger toward God was so intense that I would not even so much as acknowledge him in prayer. He had "turned his back on me" as far as I was concerned, and I wanted none of it. One day it reached a tipping point, and I was literally on the ground sobbing - "coming to my senses" as it were - God was so gracious to have accepted me back as a son. It was wholly his work - 100%. But without a receptive heart, he can do nothing. The dead cannot save themselves. that's true. But once the heart is quickened by God, we become contrite.

We have to remember that:

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.​

This act of contrition was something that David brought to God. God worked in David's heart through the Prophet Nathan and brought him to repentance, but that act of contrition found in the Psalm ("coming to his senses") was David's doing. It was a sacrifice that David brought.

The rubric of 100/100 is not hard to understand. It can be broken down to make sense if it is looked at without blinders. But as soon as someone sees 99.9% in either category, then we do have a problem, that much is correct.