Does the Qu'ran tell the same truth found in the Christian Bible?

[MennoSota]

Im not sure exactly where we are missing one another.

Christ being the Word of GOD, and as such; being the first born of GOD and the last judge of all; Alpha and Omega, is in no way refuted within the quran. Me understanding how the word son can be misused is not me denying my beloved; Christ or Jesus.

I never said or insinuated that there was any other Way to GOD. The Holy Spirit indeed did work throughout the OT and the lives of the Messengers and prophets of GOD.

Why do I need to look up the word begotten in the Strong's concordance when it isn't even actually in the Greek bible?

You revisiting the topic at hand regardless of your perception of me is telling in itself. We all get impatient at times. We can get angry and frustrated too; but when we let our anger go in favor of the potential of peacable profitable conversation; well, then, to me; we are exhibiting a good characteristic and allowing for hope. What I am saying is that you seem to be a true Christian in that you actually give some emphassis to the Word of GOD as it pertains to your life, thought and deed. You do not ever need to apologise toe for exhibiting such fair qualities friend. I can't even ask for your patience justifiably due to my own lack of such at times. The fact that you exhibit sincerity is all I could hope for.

We can all be led astray by following the traditions and interpretations of past men. It is something that can happen to anyone except the very elect in my opinion; and in no way correlates to believe in the quran or Mohammad alone. Such is evident due to the fact that very many "christians" have gone very far off the straight path too.

It will never be my intent to dilute the fact that GOD came in the form of a man for the sake of all creation.

I don't know what you mean about enlightened and another religion. I do not divide the faithful towards GOD along "religious" lines, but by their word and deed( the fruits of their spirit).

What was your original question please?

Thank you for your leveled approach and apparent sincerity friend.

peace

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

pops, you separate God from the man. Jesus very clearly says He is God, the I AM (YHWH), in John 8. That was why the Jews tried to kill him.
Your separation of the man, Jesus, from God, Jesus, means your claim to be a Christian is unorthodox and considered heresy by all Christianity outside of established cults.
Your deliberate wording of sentences to disguise the truth is noted by myself and others. It seems that you have more in common with Islam than you have with Christianity. Although, I am quite sure that no orthodox Muslim would ever see your view as anything but a twist of their faith as well. You seem to have established your own unique little belief system, pops.

 

[popsthebuilder]

pops, you separate God from the man. Jesus very clearly says He is God, the I AM (YHWH), in John 8. That was why the Jews tried to kill him.
Your separation of the man, Jesus, from God, Jesus, means your claim to be a Christian is unorthodox and considered heresy by all Christianity outside of established cults.
Your deliberate wording of sentences to disguise the truth is noted by myself and others. It seems that you have more in common with Islam than you have with Christianity. Although, I am quite sure that no orthodox Muslim would ever see your view as anything but a twist of their faith as well. You seem to have established your own unique little belief system, pops.

I never claimed to be orthodox.

Thanks for your opinion. What would you suggest I do since according to your doctrine; I can do nothing?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

I never claimed to be orthodox.

Thanks for your opinion. What would you suggest I do since according to your doctrine; I can do nothing?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I suggest you humbly bow to God and beg him to show you his grace that will give you faith. Perhaps by His Sovereign decree he will answer you and bless you with His amazing grace. You are at His mercy.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I suggest you humbly bow to God and beg him to show you his grace that will give you faith. Perhaps by His Sovereign decree he will answer you and bless you with His amazing grace. You are at His mercy.

Indeed friend

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

Indeed friend

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I'm glad it seems like your doctrine in flexible....

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

I'm glad it seems like your doctrine in flexible....

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

It has nothing to do with my doctrine. It has everything to do with God expressing His grace according to His Sovereign will.

 

[atpollard]

[Jhn 1:14, 18 NASB] 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only[G3439] begotten[G3439] from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only[G3439] begotten[G3439] God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
[Jhn 3:16, 18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only[G3439] begotten[G3439] Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ... 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only[G3439] begotten[G3439] Son of God.


Strong’s Definitions:
[G3439] μονογενής monogenḗs, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:—only (begotten, child).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
STRONGS NT 3439: μονογενής
μονογενής, μονογενές (μόνος and γένος) (Cicero,unigena; Vulg. (in Lukeunicus, elsewhere) and in ecclesiastical writingsunigenitus), single of its kind, only (A. V. only-begotten); used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents), Hesiod theog. 426, 448; Herodotus 7, 221; Plato, Critias 113 d.; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 13, 1; 2, 7, 4; μονογενές τέκνον πατρί, Aeschylus Ag. 898. So in the Scriptures: Hebrews 11:17; μονογενῆ εἶναι τίνι (to be one's only son or daughter), Judges 11:34; Tobit 3:15; Luke 7:12; Luke 8:42; Luke 9:38; (cf. Westcott on Epistles of John, pp. 162ff). Hence, the expression ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ and υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ ὁ μονογονης, John 3:16, 18; John 1:18 (see below); 1 John 4:9; μονογενής παρά πατρός, John 1:14 (some take this generally, owing to the omission of the article (cf. Green, pp. 48f)), used of Christ, denotes the only son of God or one who in the sense in which he himself is the son of God has no brethren. He is so spoken of by John not because ὁ λόγος which was ἐνσαρκωθεις in him was eternally generated by God the Father (the orthodox interpretation), or came forth from the being of God just before the beginning of the world (Subordinationism), but because by the incarnation (ἐνσαρκωσις) of the λόγος in him he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him τέκνα τοῦ Θεοῦ (John 1:13). For since in the writings of John the title ὁ ἱυος τοῦ Θεοῦ is given only to the historic Christ so called, neither the Logos alone, nor Jesus alone, but ὁ λόγος ὁ ἐνσαρκωθεις or Jesus through the λόγος united with God, is ὁ μονογενής υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ. The reading μονογενής Θεός (without the article before μονογενής) in John 1:18, — which is supported by no inconsiderable weight of ancient testimony, received into the text by Tregelles, and Westcott and Hort, defended with much learning by Dr. Hort ("On μονογενής Θεός in Scripture and Tradition in his Two Dissertations" Camb. and Lond. 1876), and seems not improbable to Harnack (in the Theol. Lit.-Zeit. for 1876, p. 541ff) (and Weiss (in Meyer 6te Aufl. at the passage)), but is foreign to John's mode of thought and speech (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9), dissonant and harsh — appears to owe its origin to a dogmatic zeal which broke out soon after the early days of the church; (see articles on the reading by Prof. Abbot in the Bib. Sacr. for Oct. 1861 and in the Unitarian Rev. for June 1875 (in the latter copious references to other discussions of the same passage are given); see also Prof. Drummond in the Theol. Rev. for Oct. 1871). Further, see Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap., p. 152f; (Westcott as above).

 

[George]

Does Quran 9:5 say to kill unbelievers? [as I said it does.] Does it say to fight them by hiding in ambush? ... Christians are 'polytheists' because we believe in the trinity.

I just wanted to check that you're not affirming belief in the Trinity as polytheism? Sorry I just had to ask since this part caught my eye.

 

[George]

I could actually show you every bit of that from the quran; except Christ didn't die, Jesus did. Christ is anointed with the Spirit of GOD; which cannot be killed.



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Wait what? Is Jesus not the Christ then?

 

[George]

Of course he does, just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that Jesus was the son of GOD ... but not really GOD.
It is all in how you redefine the words ... CHRIST was the God, but JESUS was just a man. JESUS died and CHRIST/GOD cannot die.

WHAT. Absolutely not. I smell Nestorianism.

 

[George]

Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only‐begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Just keep in mind that this version of the Nicene Creed is not the original one.

 

[George]

So one believing in a creed devised by men is one being a Christian, as opposed to one believing Christ?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Rather than casting out statements like that, take a look at the First Ecumenical Council convened by Saint Constantine, the collaboration of the Church as a whole produced the Nicene Creed, which affirms orthodox Christianity and how people were determined to be Christian by their beliefs.

 

[George]

I never claimed to be orthodox.

Thanks for your opinion. What would you suggest I do since according to your doctrine; I can do nothing?



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Then if that's the case, why do you identify with the Christian cross you have on your profile, as that icon is for those who are orthodox, and then what do you identify as?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Rather than casting out statements like that, take a look at the First Ecumenical Council convened by Saint Constantine, the collaboration of the Church as a whole produced the Nicene Creed, which affirms orthodox Christianity and how people were determined to be Christian by their beliefs.

No sir; it was not the church as a whole....what about Arius?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

Then if that's the case, why do you identify with the Christian cross you have on your profile, as that icon is for those who are orthodox, and then what do you identify as?

I cannot change whatever pic you are speaking of from Tapatalk.

I id as one who strives to be faithful to GOD through the teachings example and self sacrifice taught through word and deed by the Christ of GOD, Jesus.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[atpollard]

I just wanted to check that you're not affirming belief in the Trinity as polytheism? Sorry I just had to ask since this part caught my eye.

No, Christians are not polytheists. Islam and the Qu'ran just reguard Trinitarians as such so Qu'ran verses about 'polytheists' apply to anyone who believes the doctrine of the Trinity (which is most 'Christians') ... I guess the JWs can ignore the polytheist verses in the Qu'ran.

What I believe is ... "we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.” ... or broken down:
(1) There is only one God.
(2) The Father is God.
(3) The Son is God.
(4) The Holy Spirit is God.
(5) The Father is not the Son.
(6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.
(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

And just for anyone else reading, a quote from Kevin DeYoung:

Although the word “Trinity” is famously absent from Scripture, the theology behind the word can be found in a surprising number of verses. For starters there are verses that speak of God’s oneness (Deut. 6:4; Isa. 44:6; 1 Tim. 1:17). Then there are the myriad of passages which demonstrate that God is Father (e.g., John 6:27, Titus 1:4). Next, we have the scores of texts which prove the deity of Jesus Christ, the Son—passages like John 1 (“the word was God”), John 8:58 (“before Abraham was born, I am”), Col. 2:9 (“in Christ all the fullness of Deity lives in bodily form”), Heb. 1:3 (“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of his being”), Tit. 2:13 (“our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”)-not to mention the explicit worship Christ willingly received from his disciples (Luke 24:52; John 20:28) and the charges of blasphemy leveled against him for making himself equal with God (Mark 2:7). Then we have similar texts which assume the deity of the Holy Spirit, calling Him an “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) and using “God” interchangeably with the “Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 3:16 and 1 Cor. 6:19; Acts 5:3-4) without a second thought.

The shape of Trinitarian orthodoxy is finally rounded off by texts that hint at the plurality of persons in the Godhead (Gen. 1:1-3, 26; Psalm 2:7; Dan. 7), texts like 1 Cor. 8:6 which place Jesus Christ as Lord right in the middle of Jewish Shema, and dozens of texts that speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the same breath, equating the three in rank, while assuming distinction of personhood (Matt. 28:19; Gal. 4:6; 1 Cor.12:4-6; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Cor. 2:21-22; 13:14; Eph. 1:13-14; 2:18, 20-22; 3:14-17; 4:4-6; 5:18-20; 6:10-18).

The doctrine of the Trinity, as summarized in the seven statements earlier, is not a philosophical concoction by some over-zealous and over-intelligent early theologians, but one of the central planks of orthodoxy which can shown, explicitly or implicitly, from a multitude of biblical texts.

 

[atpollard]

Just keep in mind that this version of the Nicene Creed is not the original one.

No, the original was in Greek ...

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα
πάντων ὁρατῶν τε καὶ ἀοράτων ποιητήν·
καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν
τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ,
γεννηθέντα ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς μονογενῆ
τουτέστιν ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ Πατρος
Θεὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ,
Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,
γεννηθέντα, οὐ ποιηθέντα,
ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί,
δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο
τά τε ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ καὶ τὰ ἐν τῇ γῇ,
τὸν δι’ ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ
διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν,

κατελθόντα,
καὶ σαρκωθέντα,
καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα,
παθόντα,
καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ,
ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς,
ἐρχόμενον κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς.
καὶ εἰς τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα.
Τοὺς δὲ λέγοντας Ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν,
καὶ Πρὶν γεννηθῆναι οὐκ ἦν,
καὶ ὅτι Ἐξ οὐκ ὄντων εγένετο,
ἢ Ἐξ ἑτέρας ὑποστάσεως ἢ οὐσιάς φάσκοντας εἶναι
ἢ κτιστόν
ἢ τρεπτόν
ἢ ἀλλοιωτὸν τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ,
τούτους ἀναθεματίζει ἡ ἁγία καθολικὴ καὶ ἀποστολικὴ ἐκκλησία.

... but I don't read Greek.:chairfall:

(On a serious note, it IS the version that I believe, which is what it says: "I believe ...")

Translation of the Nicene Creed of AD 325 (for anyone interested):

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the Son of God,
begotten from the Father, only-begotten,
that is, from the substance of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten not made,
of one substance with the Father,
through Whom all things came into being,
things in heaven and things on earth,
Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down,
and became incarnate
and became man,
and suffered,
and rose again on the third day,
and ascended to the heavens,
and will come to judge the living and dead,
And in the Holy Spirit.
But as for those who say, There was when He was not,
and, Before being born He was not,
and that He came into existence out of nothing,
or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance,
or created,
or is subject to alteration or change
- these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.

 

[George]

No sir; it was not the church as a whole....what about Arius?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Arius was declared a heretic, and the Ecumenical aspect of it is that the universal church was at the council.

 

[George]

No sir; it was not the church as a whole....what about Arius?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Arius was declared a heretic, and the Ecumenical aspect of it is that the universal church was at the council.

 

[George]

No, the original was in Greek ...

... but I don't read Greek.:chairfall:

(On a serious note, it IS the version that I believe, which is what it says: "I believe ...")

Translation of the Nicene Creed of AD 325 (for anyone interested):

Yeah but I can. :lol: