Does the Qu'ran tell the same truth found in the Christian Bible?

atpollard

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"Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God"

(So think for a second; is the power and wisdom of GOD dead or alive?)

Jesus surely did die by the hands of men, but that in no way means the Christ died literally. As if any man can extinguish the light and flame of GOD.
Please, you are tap dancing up a storm.

The Quran is clear in its statement that Jesus, the Messiah, the son of Mary
1. DID NOT DIE.
2. WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.

The Bible is equally clear and emphatic that Christ (the Greek word for the Hebrew word Messiah ... both meaning 'annointed')
1. DID DIE
2. WAS CRUCIFIED

Even if we accept your 'heretical' claim (no offense, but 'orthodox' Christianity claims Jesus' divinity and humanity are inseperable), "Jesus", the annointed one ("Messiah"), the "son of Mary" ... is the part that was killed on the cross (contrary to what the Quran states).
Quran 4:157 And for their saying, “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him.
 

popsthebuilder

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Please, you are tap dancing up a storm.

The Quran is clear in its statement that Jesus, the Messiah, the son of Mary
1. DID NOT DIE.
2. WAS NOT CRUCIFIED.

The Bible is equally clear and emphatic that Christ (the Greek word for the Hebrew word Messiah ... both meaning 'annointed')
1. DID DIE
2. WAS CRUCIFIED

Even if we accept your 'heretical' claim (no offense, but 'orthodox' Christianity claims Jesus' divinity and humanity are inseperable), "Jesus", the annointed one ("Messiah"), the "son of Mary" ... is the part that was killed on the cross (contrary to what the Quran states).
Quran 4:157 And for their saying, “We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him.
So do they deny that Christ came in the flesh?

Is that not what one must believe to be saved?

Do they deny the ressurection of the dead?

Those are the two things that define one being against the Messiah, which the quran is not, as it proclaims neither of those things, but actually states that exactly.

Your argument is nothing but needless division.

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atpollard

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So do they deny that Christ came in the flesh?
Is that not what one must believe to be saved?

Actually, NO! That is not what one must believe to be saved!
Most atheists believe that Jesus actually lived.
All demons are certain of that fact.

So what does the BIBLE (you remember ... that book written about Jesus by people who actually knew him) say is required to be saved?
It does not agree with what the Quran says is required to please Allah.

Do they deny the resurrection of the dead?
They only deny the resurrection of Jesus, because "In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did." [Q4:157]

Those are the two things that define one being against the Messiah, which the quran is not, as it proclaims neither of those things, but actually states that exactly.
Your argument is nothing but needless division.
The Qu'ran denies that Christ is God.
The Qu'ran denies that Christ died to forgive sin.
The Qu'ran denies that Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man.
The Qu'ran teaches that we must OBEY and DO to be holy (Christ taught that our works cannot save us, that we are saved by faith in Christ and no other way).
You are in my prayers.

Ephesians 2:1-10 NLT
1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
 

MennoSota

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"Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God"

(So think for a second; is the power and wisdom of GOD dead or alive?)

Jesus surely did die by the hands of men, but that in no way means the Christ died literally. As if any man can extinguish the light and flame of GOD.

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That's a twisted pretzel you have created and it is nowhere taught in the Bible.
It is clear that you must make up unsubstantiated interpretations to get your pretzel to work. Any intelligent human will see how convoluted your interpretation is and reject it outright. Those who follow your thought will "meet their fate" just as Peter tells us.
 

Andrew

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It's frightening how obvious the quran assaults the Gospel. It acknowledges that Jesus was here in the flesh but denise everything he stood for and eliminates grace completely yet people accept this barbaric and blasphemous literature as truth.
Prayers for you pop

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popsthebuilder

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It's frightening how obvious the quran assaults the Gospel. It acknowledges that Jesus was here in the flesh but denise everything he stood for and eliminates grace completely yet people accept this barbaric and blasphemous literature as truth.
Prayers for you pop

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It denies nothing He stands for.

It in no way neglects the grace of GOD.

You and you Calvinist buddy are making things up because your own doctrines are self contradictory.

May our GOD guide us all.

it's funny how I am accused of manipulative interpretation when it is the two of you who either out right deny actual comparison ,or simply cherry pick both books to conclude the outcome you desire.



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popsthebuilder

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That's a twisted pretzel you have created and it is nowhere taught in the Bible.
It is clear that you must make up unsubstantiated interpretations to get your pretzel to work. Any intelligent human will see how convoluted your interpretation is and reject it outright. Those who follow your thought will "meet their fate" just as Peter tells us.
This is coming from the guy who thinks none can turn to GOD, and who thinks the mercy of GOD ismt actually synonymous with mercy.

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MennoSota

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This is coming from the guy who thinks none can turn to GOD, and who thinks the mercy of GOD ismt actually synonymous with mercy.

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It's not a matter of what I think. It is a matter of what God says.
"No one seeks God not even one." (See Romans 3)
Mercy is God not giving to us what we deserve. We receive daily and moment by moment mercy from God when what we deserve is His eternal judgment.
What I believe is what the Bible teaches.
"For it is by...grace...you have been saved, by faith. This is not by yourself. It is the gift of God. So no one can boast."
 

Andrew

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It denies nothing He stands for.

It in no way neglects the grace of GOD.

You and you Calvinist buddy are making things up because your own doctrines are self contradictory.

May our GOD guide us all.

it's funny how I am accused of manipulative interpretation when it is the two of you who either out right deny actual comparison ,or simply cherry pick both books to conclude the outcome you desire.



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Well suit yourself, we proved you wrong over and over again with verses and comparisons yet you ignore the facts.

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atpollard

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it's funny how I am accused of manipulative interpretation when it is the two of you who either out right deny actual comparison ,or simply cherry pick both books to conclude the outcome you desire.
Tell you what ...
Why don't YOU present two verses (one from the Qu'ran and one from the Bible) that teach the same thing?
Then we can see what a 'non-manipulative' interpretation looks like through an 'actual comparison'.
Frankly, up to this point, you have been heavy on opinions but light on verses.
 

Andrew

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It denies nothing He stands for.

It in no way neglects the grace of GOD.

You and you Calvinist buddy are making things up because your own doctrines are self contradictory.

May our GOD guide us all.

it's funny how I am accused of manipulative interpretation when it is the two of you who either out right deny actual comparison ,or simply cherry pick both books to conclude the outcome you desire.



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What exactly is the grace of GOD according to the Qur'an?

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popsthebuilder

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Tell you what ...
Why don't YOU present two verses (one from the Qu'ran and one from the Bible) that teach the same thing?
Then we can see what a 'non-manipulative' interpretation looks like through an 'actual comparison'.
Frankly, up to this point, you have been heavy on opinions but light on verses.
19:75. Say, ‘The Most Gracious (God) gives those, who are steeped in error, long respite.’

(grace)

But when such people see that with which they are threatened, be it some (worldly) punishment or the Hour (of complete and final destruction), they shall realize who is worse placed and weaker in forces.19:76.

To those who follow guidance Allâh gives increased guidance.

Luke 12: 47. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?

Luke 16: 10. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11. If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12. And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

Luke 19: 16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Luke 19: 19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21. For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24. And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 26. For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


19:76(cont.)And from the point of view of reward and ultimate return, (you should bear in mind that) the righteous deeds that last and endure are best in the sight of your Lord.



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atpollard

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Just something I stumbled across in Chapter 19 ...

Quran 19:88-92
88. And they say, “The Most Merciful has begotten a son.”
89. You have come up with something monstrous.
90. At which the heavens almost rupture, and the earth splits, and the mountains fall and crumble.
91. Because they attribute a son to the Most Merciful.
92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.

The words speak for themselves.

(Still trying to follow the flow of Quran 19 to understand the verses that you quoted before I respond.)
 

atpollard

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Quran 19:68-76
68. By your Lord, We will round them up, and the devils, then We will bring them around Hell, on their knees.
69. Then, out of every sect, We will snatch those most defiant to the Most Merciful.
70. We are fully aware of those most deserving to scorch in it.
71. There is not one of you but will go down to it. This has been an unavoidable decree of your Lord.
72. Then We will rescue those who were devout, and leave the wrongdoers in it, on their knees.
73. When Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who disbelieve say to those who believe, “Which of the two parties is better in position, and superior in influence?”
74. How many a generation have We destroyed before them, who surpassed them in riches and splendor?
75. Say, “Whoever is in error, the Most Merciful will lead him on.” Until, when they see what they were promised—either the punishment, or the Hour. Then they will know who was in worse position and weaker in forces.
76. God increases in guidance those who accept guidance. And the things that endure—the righteous deeds—have the best reward with your Lord, and the best outcome.


I don’t think 19:75-76 is about what you say it is about, but I don’t think it is worth debating.
One cannot read Chapter 19 and think it does not radically contradict the basic truths of the Bible.
I have no desire to read any more of the Quran.
 

popsthebuilder

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Just something I stumbled across in Chapter 19 ...

Quran 19:88-92
88. And they say, “The Most Merciful has begotten a son.”
89. You have come up with something monstrous.
90. At which the heavens almost rupture, and the earth splits, and the mountains fall and crumble.
91. Because they attribute a son to the Most Merciful.
92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.

The words speak for themselves.

(Still trying to follow the flow of Quran 19 to understand the verses that you quoted before I respond.)
Christ doesn't mean son of GOD; it means anointed by GOD.

the words only begotten son actually can translate wholly differently.

Equating the son to GOD is to equate man to the eternal and all mighty.

Jesus is never recorded to have done such.
f3563c63dd5ecb65c452133f6768bf54.jpg


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popsthebuilder

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Quran 19:68-76
68. By your Lord, We will round them up, and the devils, then We will bring them around Hell, on their knees.
69. Then, out of every sect, We will snatch those most defiant to the Most Merciful.
70. We are fully aware of those most deserving to scorch in it.
71. There is not one of you but will go down to it. This has been an unavoidable decree of your Lord.
72. Then We will rescue those who were devout, and leave the wrongdoers in it, on their knees.
73. When Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who disbelieve say to those who believe, “Which of the two parties is better in position, and superior in influence?”
74. How many a generation have We destroyed before them, who surpassed them in riches and splendor?
75. Say, “Whoever is in error, the Most Merciful will lead him on.” Until, when they see what they were promised—either the punishment, or the Hour. Then they will know who was in worse position and weaker in forces.
76. God increases in guidance those who accept guidance. And the things that endure—the righteous deeds—have the best reward with your Lord, and the best outcome.


I don’t think 19:75-76 is about what you say it is about, but I don’t think it is worth debating.
One cannot read Chapter 19 and think it does not radically contradict the basic truths of the Bible.
I have no desire to read any more of the Quran.
Whatever.....just don't act like it is contrary to the bible when I have shown clearly and am willing to show more. If you think you are correct then you should be willing to continue to show such. If you think I am in grave error then you would think you would strive to change my perception; being a Christian and all, but then the vast majority seem to belief faith is not effectual nor causal to works pleasing to GOD, so maybe I am just waisting everyone's time; but I'm not the one who keeps bringing it back up in topics either.i will gladly end discussion on it, but i will not listen to lies propagated as Truth.

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MennoSota

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Whatever.....just don't act like it is contrary to the bible when I have shown clearly and am willing to show more. If you think you are correct then you should be willing to continue to show such. If you think I am in grave error then you would think you would strive to change my perception; being a Christian and all, but then the vast majority seem to belief faith is not effectual nor causal to works pleasing to GOD, so maybe I am just waisting everyone's time; but I'm not the one who keeps bringing it back up in topics either.i will gladly end discussion on it, but i will not listen to lies propagated as Truth.

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pops, you will drag this out forever with excuses and claims that you need more. It is the same strategy that the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees used to deny Jesus. "Give us a sign!" they complained.
Fact is, if you are incapable of accepting the Bible, you are incapable.
 

psalms 91

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Good grief, why pages upon pages when I assume all here know that Jesus was the Son of God, was tempted, died on the cross arose, and ascended on to the Father, we also know from scripture that there is no other name under heaven that can save and that there is only one way unto God, there is that really so hard.
 

Andrew

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Good grief, why pages upon pages when I assume all here know that Jesus was the Son of God, was tempted, died on the cross arose, and ascended on to the Father, we also know from scripture that there is no other name under heaven that can save and that there is only one way unto God, there is that really so hard.
Pops doesn't accept that Jesus is the Son of God, that is why this has dragged on for so long. He is holding the Qur'an to be the higher truth over the Word of God and the promise.


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popsthebuilder

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pops, you will drag this out forever with excuses and claims that you need more. It is the same strategy that the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees used to deny Jesus. "Give us a sign!" they complained.
Fact is, if you are incapable of accepting the Bible, you are incapable.

Wow....how very unfounded. And what an inaccurate analogy.

I cannot even begin to express the manifold signs I have witnessed....more of the same from you though i see.

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