Lutherans don't believe Jesus is God?

[Josiah]

For example,

Lutherans enjoy that


.

They don't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Josiah]

Let's just all agree, the statement is false. And the author MAY choose to say, "I didn't intend that."

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I never made a universal statement. I have listened to instructors and seminarians from Luther Seminary deny the deity of Christ. This is a fact.
"The cross is not about punishment for sin either. Not for Jesus' sin, certainly, but also not for ours."
~ David Lose - President of Luther Theological Seminary in Philadelphia
"The cross is not about God as divine child abuser sadly sending his little boy off to be killed because we were bad, and well, somebody has to pay."
~ Pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber
"The notion of the prexistent Son of God becoming a human being in the womb of a virgin and then returning to his heavenly home is bound up with the mythological picture of the world that clashes with the modern scientific view. The preexistence of Christ is an integral part of the myth of the incarnation." (From a textbook of the ELCA)

Okay, so the first two (from what it appears) are dealing with the idea of "Penal Substitutionary Atonement", and possible reasons against it. There's really nothing new there, and certainly nothing that denies Christ's Deity.
The second I won't accept without a source (linked) and context. As I said, make your case.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Let's just all agree, the statement is false. And the author MAY choose to say, "I didn't intend that."

If it weren't for posts like the one I quoted above, I could accept that. He doesn't intend it, but then just keeps going, and going, and going...

 

[Albion]

How about a mass "ignore?"

 

[MennoSota]

Okay, so the first two (from what it appears) are dealing with the idea of "Penal Substitutionary Atonement", and possible reasons against it. There's really nothing new there, and certainly nothing that denies Christ's Deity.
The second I won't accept without a source (linked) and context. As I said, make your case.

ID2, it's clear you don't live in the heart of American Lutheranism. If you did and spent time with the ELCA cemetarians here in Minnesota you'd leave the denomination.

 

[MennoSota]

"I think the stories are made up. They are myths." (Referring to Jesus and the Virgin birth)
~ Dr Don Carlson, Assistant to the Bishop of the Texas - Louisiana Gulf Coast Synod
"I let go of the notion that the Bible is a divine product. I learned that it is a human cultural product...as such, it contained their understandings and affirmations, not statements coming directly or somewhat directly from God."
"Seminary also introduced me to the historical study of Jesus and Christian origins. I learned from my professors and readings they assigned that Jesus almost certainly was not born of a virgin, did not think of himself as the Son of God, and did not see his purpose as dying for the sins of the world."
"Was the pre-Easter Jesus divine? NO."
~ Marcus Borg
Marcus Borg was a primary member of the Jesus Seminar at Luther Seminary in St Paul.

 

[Josiah]

ID2, it's clear you don't live in the heart of American Lutheranism. If you did and spent time with the ELCA cemetarians here in Minnesota you'd leave the denomination.

1. No one here is ELCA.

2. It seems you know everything about an undisclosed number of ELCA students in Minnesota. Okay. They aren't all Lutherans, they arn't the Book of Concord, and they aren't the same as "Lutherans." Friend, if any cared to spend the time (and it would be a waste of time) I'm very confident that we could look at 5 or 6 Catholics or Greek Orthodox or United Reformed or LCMS or UMC or ANY OTHER DENOMINATION WITH OVER 1000 members - and find some comment that at least appears unorthodox. I'm imaging there MIGHT be at least one student or teacher in some institution associated with your denomination that might have said something that appears unorthodox. The problem is your logic: ERGO Lutherans deny Christ.

3. Yes, the Book of Concord does not dogmatically endorse ANY of the various "atonement theories' (including the "vicarious" or "substitutional") - nor does it condemn any of them. But it's ABSURD and of course wrong to say ERGO the Book of Concord denies the divinity of Christ - or even that ERGO Lutherans do (your logic often is, well.....).

4. You were given a WIDE OPEN DOOR here to simply say, "I over-stated things" and apologize. No one here would have held it against you, but....

5. I was not offended by your post (another started this thread, a non-Lutheran) because I saw it as simply yet another attempt to evade what was posted to you and an attempt to change the subject away from one you obviously were increasingly uncomfortable defending. But again, when it was brought to your attention.... since we all know you erred ..... the appropriate thing would have been to state, "Okay, I way over stated the case." Or, "Okay, I made a baseless generality." But you have not.

 

[MennoSota]

1. No one here is ELCA.

2. It seems you know everything about an undisclosed number of ELCA students in Minnesota. Okay. They aren't all Lutherans, they arn't the Book of Concord, and they aren't the same as "Lutherans." Friend, if any cared to spend the time (and it would be a waste of time) I'm very confident that we could look at 5 or 6 Catholics or Greek Orthodox or United Reformed or LCMS or UMC or ANY OTHER DENOMINATION WITH OVER 1000 members - and find some comment that at least appears unorthodox. I'm imaging there MIGHT be at least one student or teacher in some institution associated with your denomination that might have said something that appears unorthodox. The problem is your logic: ERGO Lutherans deny Christ.

3. Yes, the Book of Concord does not dogmatically endorse ANY of the various "atonement theories' (including the "vicarious" or "substitutional") - nor does it condemn any of them. But it's ABSURD and of course wrong to say ERGO the Book of Concord denies the divinity of Christ - or even that ERGO Lutherans do (your logic often is, well.....).

4. You were given a WIDE OPEN DOOR here to simply say, "I over-stated things" and apologize. No one here would have held it against you, but....

5. I was not offended by your post (another started this thread, a non-Lutheran) because I saw it as simply yet another attempt to evade what was posted to you and an attempt to change the subject away from one you obviously were increasingly uncomfortable defending. But again, when it was brought to your attention.... since we all know you erred ..... the appropriate thing would have been to state, "Okay, I way over stated the case." Or, "Okay, I made a baseless generality." But you have not.

I said Lutherans. Is the ELCA not Lutherans?
I never said all Lutherans. That is something the OP is implying.
Truth is that people here are trying to support a denomination when they should be supporting the Bible over their denomination. Sadly, some people can't see the Bible outside of their denominational lense.

 

[Albion]

1. No one here is ELCA.

You think YOU were wrongly included? I was too, and I'm an Anglican. :lol:

 

[MennoSota]

You think YOU were wrongly included? I was too, and I'm an Anglican.

Anglican...ELCA...liberals...meh...

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

...meh...

'bout sums your input.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Well, I hope I can try to provide some constructive input. The ELCA is regarded by many of us in the LCMS as an apostate organization that has no right to claim the name " Lutheran" in their title. That many prominent clerical figures in a seminary run by ELCA ( " Everything Luther Cautioned Against") deny Christ's Deity surprises me not at all. In fact, there's an ELCA affiliated " herchurch" group that promotes "Goddess" worship http://www.herchurch.org/. No Confessional Lutheran would sully him/ herself with associating with such as those.

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm thinking Stravinsky doesn't believe Jesus is God. Is he an ELCA Lutheran? He could be...

Let's find out. [MENTION=216]Stravinsk[/MENTION]?

No, I am not a Lutheran of any variety.

As for Jesus being God...

The important thing about Messiah is His Teachings. They are of God. When He speaks, He is speaking what He has been given, as He said, and it comes from the Father. Not too many Christians pay much attention to what He said though, most of what they quote and believe is from their favorite so called apostle - Saul/Paul of Tarsus. The two conflict in many areas. They are far from harmonious.

His body?

I'd rather ask either person quoted if you think God can be killed? Did Christ not really die on the cross? Your (Pauline) faith is in vain. Was Christ's body God and can God be killed?

Pray tell, why would Christ undergo baptism, and why does the Holy Spirit descend onto Him when He should already be full of the Spirit?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I'd rather ask either person quoted if you think God can be killed?

No.

Did Christ not really die on the cross?

To avoid a double-negative (e.g. he "did not not..." ) My answer is that yes, the man, Christ, died on the cross.

Was Christ's body God

Christ's body was flesh and bone, just like yours and mine. His body was put to death.

and can God be killed?

God cannot be killed.

Pray tell, why would Christ undergo baptism

He was being obedient by accepting the baptism of repentance, although he had no need. Imo, it was an example of humility (God the Son lowering himself to the level of a servant). Speculative personal opinion, though.

and why does the Holy Spirit descend onto Him when He should already be full of the Spirit?

He was. It's been speculated that the Holy Spirit descending was visible only to John as a witness to him (John) that Christ was the Messiah - a pov that I personally accept. Others may have a different 'take' on it.

 

[MennoSota]

No, I am not a Lutheran of any variety.

As for Jesus being God...

The important thing about Messiah is His Teachings. They are of God. When He speaks, He is speaking what He has been given, as He said, and it comes from the Father. Not too many Christians pay much attention to what He said though, most of what they quote and believe is from their favorite so called apostle - Saul/Paul of Tarsus. The two conflict in many areas. They are far from harmonious.

His body?

I'd rather ask either person quoted if you think God can be killed? Did Christ not really die on the cross? Your (Pauline) faith is in vain. Was Christ's body God and can God be killed?

Pray tell, why would Christ undergo baptism, and why does the Holy Spirit descend onto Him when He should already be full of the Spirit?

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

 

[Stravinsk]

No.



To avoid a double-negative (e.g. he "did not not..." ) My answer is that yes, the man, Christ, died on the cross.



Christ's body was flesh and bone, just like yours and mine. His body was put to death.



God cannot be killed.



He was being obedient by accepting the baptism of repentance, although he had no need. Imo, it was an example of humility (God the Son lowering himself to the level of a servant). Speculative personal opinion, though.



He was. It's been speculated that the Holy Spirit descending was visible only to John as a witness to him (John) that Christ was the Messiah - a pov that I personally accept. Others may have a different 'take' on it.

Thank you for your point by point response.

 

[Stravinsk]

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

No disagreement there. I'm a little bit at a loss as to how you think it counters anything I said.

 

[MennoSota]

No disagreement there. I'm a little bit at a loss as to how you think it counters anything I said.

That’s too bad.
Jesus declared that He is God.
In Exodus 3 YHWH tells Moses "Tell the people that I AM sent you." Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Jesus says he is YHWH. That is the reason the people attempt to kill him.

 

[Stravinsk]

That’s too bad.
Jesus declared that He is God.
In Exodus 3 YHWH tells Moses "Tell the people that I AM sent you." Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Jesus says he is YHWH. That is the reason the people attempt to kill him.

Jesus also said this:

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


See the underlined parts? It should be no surprise then that He says "Before Abraham was I AM".