Pitting faith against reason

[Lamb]

Our culture tends to place more comfort in reasoning things out rather than faith. We put ourselves in the center of authority rather than God because we need things to make sense to us instead of trusting that God's reasons are not always our reasons. Our human reasoning after the fall was affected by sin. Our human reason can know that Jesus exists since there is documentation that proves it. Faith grasps onto the revelation by His Word that we are saved because of Jesus' death and resurrection.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The true things of faith are simple to grasp and explain. Simple enough for a child to grasp and explain.

Yes human logic or reason can and does seem at odds with faith to very many; but the two aren't opposed to one another and actually coincide perfectly to some, no doubt.

If ones reasoning leads them away from their faith then either they are basing their reasoning on biased input, or they are basing their faith on idle fancies and vain imaginings as far as I am concerned.

It is an interesting topic; I wonder where you are leading to.

peace

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[psalms 91]

Faith does not always agree with reason. Faith is substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Faith will defy the worlds logic but yet if we ghear from God and trust we can believe who;e heartedly in what isnt yet manifested

 

[user1234]

God is not the author of confusion.
He wants us to trust in Him, and loves us enough, that even when we get stubbornly stuck to our own ways (apart from His) He says Come, let us reason together...though your sins were like scarlett, they shall be white as snow.

That's amazing grace, because He doesn't HAVE to do that...(He's God and can wipe us out)
But it shows another of His attributes...He is rich in mercies, new every morning, and He's not a dictator...using mercy like a threat He might withhold, like a club to bring a guilt-trip so we'll grovel...No, He comes down to us and says Come, let US reason TOGETHER.

He doesnt want us to pit reason against faith, but to show us how faith is very reasonable. We're to love God with all our heart, soul, and MIND, and not check our brains at the door, that includes reason and reasonableness.

It's also true that there is a way that SEEMS right to man, but the end is death, so man's 'reasoning' apart from God is not a good idea.

Also, sometimes faith in God's wisdom, will and care for us must override our insistance on knowing everything about a situation before proceeding.

But trusting God means it's reasonable to move forward WITH faith, not pitting one against the other. We're not called to have a 'leap in the dark' kind of faith, like so many other religions and even some denominations demand, but because God is trustworthy, it's reasonable to have faith in Him.

Someone once said, 'I dont have enough faith to be an atheist'. Lol....I agree. There's so much UNreasonable nonsense that the world and false teaching offers, that it takes alot of (misplaced) 'faith' to believe and follow.
It's much more reasonable to have faith in the True and Living Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

And as God shows us these things from Himself, He calls us to be that way with each other.

 

[Josiah]

"Humility is the foundation of all good theology." - Martin Luther

"Be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent." - John Wesley

"You are stewards of the mysteries of God." - God in Scripture.


It may hurt our feelings and deflate our Jupiter-size modern egos, but God probably knows more about the things of God than we do. If something doesn't "make sense" to our own puny, fallen, sinful, largely-ignorant brains then I find it likely the problem is on our end and not Gods. But that's just my guess..

 

[Lamb]

Job 38:1-2 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?

It isn't for us to know all because it goes against our own reason. God does keep some things mysteries.

 

[user1234]

Many religionists use the excuse of mystery to deliberately keep ppl ignorant and blindly following, often with fear and threats attached.

Many a person has been kept in darkness by religion and false doctrine and practice .... And many have been set free when they began to question things within their religion or denomination, often because some things seemed unreasonable, some things just 'didnt set quite right' , and the Truth set them free.

How sad how many children are raised in a religious institution, denomination, or cult, where they're told not to question anything.
•"But pastor/father/reverend, what about this or that?"
••"It's a mystery, child, dont question, just obey."

That has carried over into adulthood for millions, some their whole life. Many have to 'un-learn' much of what they were taught and believed, both before and after being saved.
But often when they do get the faith by the Word of God...LOOKOUT...another sinner-turned-saint set on fire for the Lord (in the good sense, lol) and they often become very effective in the body of Christ when that liberty catches hold of them.

Thank God for the modern communications we have these days, where ppl have much more access and ability to be like the Bereans, but of course, there's alot more false teaching to guard against as well, but there's more access to the Word of God than ever, and ppl are finding that TRUE christianity (Jesus) is more reasonable to have faith in than anything else out there.

Surely we see some things dimly, and as individuals, we're all a work in progress, but God has given us His Word and all things that pertain to life and Godliness, and He's not the big secret-keeper or Riddler that likes to see His 'subjects' squirm.

Of course it's foolish to DEMAND answers to everything (want it here, want it now!), He knows what's best, what we need, and what we can handle, and sometimes things may seem unreasonable for the moment, but we can trust Him to work things out for the best, and faith and reason grow together.

 

[Josiah]

How sad how many children are raised in a religious institution, denomination, or cult, where they're told not to question anything.

Questioning is one thing..... telling God He's wrong cuz self is smarter, more informed, less ignorant and foolish than God - that's another.

Questioning a HUMAN is one thing..... questioning God is another.

Questioning teaching is one thing..... designating self the Smart One, the All-Knowing One, the Rational/Logical One, the Corrector of God designated to make God make sense, is another thing.

urely we see some things dimly, and as individuals, we're all a work in progress, but God has given us His Word and all things that pertain to life and Godliness, and He's not the big secret-keeper

and yet it is difficult for modern individuals - often with egos the size of Jupiter - to admit God just may know more about the things of God than self does, just may have more information (all the pieces of the puzzle) than self does, just MAY be smarter than self.

I think we need to be cautious about designating self as the one to make God right, to correct God when He seems to not make sense, to put in what God obviously forgot.... to insist that God is subject to our brains, our thinking, our "logic" and philosophies and theories and ways. God may just be bigger than self?

Protestantism was born out of a protest of the Medieval church that dogmatically IMPOSED it's own thinking upon God and just inserted it into the Bible as "invisible teachings" that God had to agree with (and you better, too) - things that (usually) make sense to some men, that "jibe" with the pop philosophies and theories of the day, that are made to sound really good to "smart" people - but are baseless in Scripture and frankly create a whole lot of biblical problems. Protestantism was founded on the idea that our teachings are to be God's teachings, not the other way around (as the Medieval church made it). BUT..... egoism wants to control God and dictate to God, and this temptation is found as much in Protestantism. My Greek Orthodox friend's lament about western Christianity (Protestants too) is "They forgot how to shut up." Which I think is just another way of saying, "They consider themselves smarter than God." There is much to be said in letting God have the last word - even if that leaves us with unanswered questions.




.

 

[user1234]

Questioning is one thing..... telling God He's wrong cuz self is smarter, more informed, less ignorant and foolish than God - that's another.

Whoa...What moron does that? Yikes! (Yeah, I guess we all do to some degree, eh?) It's still a shame that there's children being raised in a religious institution or denomination where they're told not to question anything, just accept what they tell you and obey or else...

Questioning a HUMAN is one thing..... questioning God is another.

Umm,...ja, no kidding, what's yer point?

Questioning teaching is one thing..... designating self the Smart One, the All-Knowing One, the Rational/Logical One, the Corrector of God designated to make God make sense, is another thing.

A repeat of your first point ↑... Again, who's the morons doing that?






and yet it is difficult for modern individuals - often with egos the size of Jupiter - to admit God just may know more about the things of God than self does, just may have more information (all the pieces of the puzzle) than self does, just MAY be smarter than self.

I think we need to be cautious about designating self as the one to make God right, to correct God when He seems to not make sense, to put in what God obviously forgot.... to insist that God is subject to our brains, our thinking, our "logic" and philosophies and theories and ways. God may just be bigger than self?

Wow, who are these modern individuals you're hanging around with?! They really need to hear the gospel and believe it. That's probly the best way to knock a Jupitor sized ego self off the throne and down to size. (Jupitor's pretty big, right?)

Protestantism was born out of a protest of the Medieval church that dogmatically IMPOSED it's own thinking upon God and just inserted it into the Bible as "invisible teachings" that God had to agree with (and you better, too) - things that (usually) make sense to some men, that "jibe" with the pop philosophies and theories of the day, that are made to sound really good to "smart" people - but are baseless in Scripture and frankly create a whole lot of biblical problems. Protestantism was founded on the idea that our teachings are to be God's teachings, not the other way around (as the Medieval church made it). BUT..... egoism wants to control God and dictate to God, and this temptation is found as much in Protestantism. My Greek Orthodox friend's lament about western Christianity (Protestants too) is "They forgot how to shut up." Which I think is just another way of saying, "They consider themselves smarter than God." There is much to be said in letting God have the last word - even if that leaves us with unanswered questions.




.

Wow, reading all that makes me gladder than ever I'm not a 'protestant'!

 

[MennoSota]

Why must faith and reason be opposites? Reason confirms faith. Faith confirms reason. They are juxtaposed, not polarized.

 

[Pedrito]

It may all depend on the base that the reason is built on.

==============================================================================================

1. There is reason based on observation of the fallen world around us.

That naturally and obviously conflicts with faith.

2. There is reason built solely on the Inspired Word of God (called "the faith once and for all delivered to the saints") – the original Apostolic Gospel.

There should be no conflict there with faith.

3. There is reason built on the modified version of that Gospel, as expressed in the creeds.

There should be no conflict there with faith either. As long as each and all of the variations can be shown to be demonstrably inspired by God.

4. But there are doctrines in many churches that conflict with both the original Apostolic Gospel, and the creeds as they stand.

Now there we do find reason pitted against faith.

"Faith" in that case necessitates belief in and loyalty to the tenets of the particular organisation a person belongs to, even if that is denied by people so belonging.

(The beliefs of "non-aligned" people can normally be linked to at least one organisation to which they don't actually belong).

That loyalty is seen expressed very clearly throughout Christendom, not just within CH.

But exposing those aberrant doctrine sets and practices to a modicum of reason, based on the Original Gospel or the modified Creed-based Gospel, quickly uncovers the defects -- it brings them to light.

==============================================================================================

And is it not when cherished aberrant doctrine is exposed, that we see emotionalism and dishonest techniques like deflection and personal attacks come to the fore?

Could it be that simply detecting those responses is a surefire way of identifying (at least some of) those aberrant doctrines?

 

[Josiah]

Why must faith and reason be opposites?

The "problem" is that God's Truth becomes subject to a person's puny brain..... God permitted to be no smarter, no more knowledgeable than the person with "reason." God can't be correct if it doesn't "make sense" to some puny, fallen, sinful, largely ignorant individual.... God under man, God smaller than self. The "problem" is the Jupiter-sized ego of fallen man who insists in creating God in his own image, subject to his own "reason" "sense" "logic" "philosophies" "worldviews" "theories." The fundamental problem is that self makes the brain of self the Sovereign Lord.


God never said "Help me out by taking my inerrant written Word and making it make sense to homo sapiens." He called us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God." God is soverign, not our human brain. God is Lord, not the one we each see in the mirror. God is Truth because He is - not because we have to spin a lot 180 degrees from what He said and fill in a LOT of stuff because God just seems.... well.... not-to-smart and well just forgot a bunch of stuff that we need to help Him by adding. Fallen man likes to make his own brain the Sovereign Lord. Protestantism was born out of a protest of that and a Call to return to just accepting the black-and-white words of the Bible, as is. IF it seems "unreasonable" to our puny, fallen, severely-limited, largely-ignorant brains.... if we can't wrap it all around our tiny brain.... if it doesn't seem to "make sense" to self... the problem is not with God but with self.



- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

How does "lean not on your own understanding" from Proverbs 3 fit in on any of this?

 

[MennoSota]

The "problem" is that God's Truth becomes subject to a person's puny brain..... God permitted to be no smarter, no more knowledgeable than the person with "reason." God can't be correct if it doesn't "make sense" to some puny, fallen, sinful, largely ignorant individual.... God under man, God smaller than self. The "problem" is the Jupiter-sized ego of fallen man who insists in creating God in his own image, subject to his own "reason" "sense" "logic" "philosophies" "worldviews" "theories." The fundamental problem is that self makes the brain of self the Sovereign Lord.


God never said "Help me out by taking my inerrant written Word and making it make sense to homo sapiens." He called us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God." God is soverign, not our human brain. God is Lord, not the one we each see in the mirror. God is Truth because He is - not because we have to spin a lot 180 degrees from what He said and fill in a LOT of stuff because God just seems.... well.... not-to-smart and well just forgot a bunch of stuff that we need to help Him by adding. Fallen man likes to make his own brain the Sovereign Lord. Protestantism was born out of a protest of that and a Call to return to just accepting the black-and-white words of the Bible, as is. IF it seems "unreasonable" to our puny, fallen, severely-limited, largely-ignorant brains.... if we can't wrap it all around our tiny brain.... if it doesn't seem to "make sense" to self... the problem is not with God but with self.



- Josiah




.

So...liturgy and traditions should be tossed out because puny brains tried to subject God's truth to their own imaginations?
Shall we toss out the catechisms and concordias since they are man-made attempts of reason to try work out faith?
Do you see your flawed argument?

 

[MennoSota]

How does "lean not on your own understanding" from Proverbs 3 fit in on any of this?

It is not in the context of casting out reason when studying God's word.
It is in context of "in all your ways acknowledge Him."
Juxtaposition

 

[popsthebuilder]

The "problem" is that God's Truth becomes subject to a person's puny brain..... God permitted to be no smarter, no more knowledgeable than the person with "reason." God can't be correct if it doesn't "make sense" to some puny, fallen, sinful, largely ignorant individual.... God under man, God smaller than self. The "problem" is the Jupiter-sized ego of fallen man who insists in creating God in his own image, subject to his own "reason" "sense" "logic" "philosophies" "worldviews" "theories." The fundamental problem is that self makes the brain of self the Sovereign Lord.


God never said "Help me out by taking my inerrant written Word and making it make sense to homo sapiens." He called us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God." God is soverign, not our human brain. God is Lord, not the one we each see in the mirror. God is Truth because He is - not because we have to spin a lot 180 degrees from what He said and fill in a LOT of stuff because God just seems.... well.... not-to-smart and well just forgot a bunch of stuff that we need to help Him by adding. Fallen man likes to make his own brain the Sovereign Lord. Protestantism was born out of a protest of that and a Call to return to just accepting the black-and-white words of the Bible, as is. IF it seems "unreasonable" to our puny, fallen, severely-limited, largely-ignorant brains.... if we can't wrap it all around our tiny brain.... if it doesn't seem to "make sense" to self... the problem is not with God but with self.



- Josiah




.

That is grasping at straws or fighting a straw man argument.

Thinking that the gospel is easy enough for a child to both understand and explain in no way limits GOD almighty to the concepts of man, or the traditions of men.

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[Josiah]

The "problem" is that God's Truth becomes subject to a person's puny brain..... God permitted to be no smarter, no more knowledgeable than the person with "reason." God can't be correct if it doesn't "make sense" to some puny, fallen, sinful, largely ignorant individual.... God under man, God smaller than self. The "problem" is the Jupiter-sized ego of fallen man who insists in creating God in his own image, subject to his own "reason" "sense" "logic" "philosophies" "worldviews" "theories." The fundamental problem is that self makes the brain of self the Sovereign Lord.


God never said "Help me out by taking my inerrant written Word and making it make sense to homo sapiens." He called us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God." God is soverign, not our human brain. God is Lord, not the one we each see in the mirror. God is Truth because He is - not because we have to spin a lot 180 degrees from what He said and fill in a LOT of stuff because God just seems.... well.... not-to-smart and well just forgot a bunch of stuff that we need to help Him by adding. Fallen man likes to make his own brain the Sovereign Lord. Protestantism was born out of a protest of that and a Call to return to just accepting the black-and-white words of the Bible, as is. IF it seems "unreasonable" to our puny, fallen, severely-limited, largely-ignorant brains.... if we can't wrap it all around our tiny brain.... if it doesn't seem to "make sense" to self... the problem is not with God but with self.



- Josiah



.

So...liturgy and traditions should be tossed out because puny brains tried to subject God's truth to their own imaginations?

The Liturgy is not the demand that God's sovereignty and God's Word is under and subject to the "sense" of some sinful bloat. The Liturgy is not doctrine AT ALL, it's mostly verbatim quotes of Scripture. Most Christians are not opposed to quoting Scripture during worship.

Shall we toss out the catechisms and concordias since they are man-made attempts of reason to try work out faith?

I can't speak for the Westminster Confession or any of the Calvinist confessions, but my Small Catechism is not an exercise in submitting God's sovereignty to some sinful mans, not an attempt to correct God's Word so that it will "make sense" to some sinful, fallen, largely-ignorant man, no attempt to correct God so that He seems logical and as smart as some fallen human.


See what I posted.



- Josiah

 

[tango]

Why must faith and reason be opposites? Reason confirms faith. Faith confirms reason. They are juxtaposed, not polarized.

I think for the most part this is true. If the things we can clearly see in front of us contradict what we have been told to believe then the chances are something is wrong.

That said, there are clearly examples throughout Scripture where a degree of blind faith was required. We see Elijah asking the widow to make him a cake, and her oil and flour never ran out. We see Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones, prophesying and watching them live. We see the Israelites leave oppression under Pharoah and walk out into, well, nobody knew just what beyond the fact Moses said it was a good idea.

Part of my concern with some of the more far-out concepts of "faith" is that they take a snippet from Scripture (such as the one psalms91 posted) but then distort the context such that it turns into a blind faith with no basis in reality whatsoever. It may be that God will ask us to take a step of faith, and it may be that God will only give us glimpses (and maybe not even that) of where the path ahead leads. But God knows our failings and I'd put money on God encouraging us to take small steps of faith before the huge leap into the dark appears.

Of course a part of the issue is that, in many ways, Scripture is silent. It tells me what I need to know about God but doesn't tell me details of what God might have in store for my life. It gives general callings (e.g. "Go into the world and preach the gospel") but "the world" could mean the other side of the world or it could be the housing projects a couple of miles away. "Love thy neighbor" applies just as much to my literal next-door-neighbor as it does to the guy in the seat beside me on the plane if I'm flying abroad. So in that regard it's entirely possible, even likely, that the best I can do regarding testing what I think is a calling from God is to confirm it is consistent with the general character of God - Scripture alone may be able to demonstrate that the "calling" is not from God but probably can't definitively say that it is. To take a silly example, if I feel led to start a relationship with my secretary it doesn't take very long to find verses in Scripture that make it clear such a "leading" is not from God. On the other hand if I feel led to become a missionary to Bolivia there isn't a verse in Scripture that will specifically tell me whether or not I am right.

My issue with those who encourage a totally blind faith is that quite frequently the "faith" is little more than wishful thinking, or a faith in something other than God. If they bring me a "word from God" and encourage me to have blind faith in it, what they are asking is that I put a huge amount of faith in them, rather than faith in God. If the message is truly from God, God is quite capable of confirming it in some other way - God knows what it will take to convince me it is him speaking rather than the ramblings of a self-proclaimed "prophet". Likewise "the hope of things unseen" might be the hope that, one day, a gleaming new Lamborghini Huracan will appear on my driveway. As a rule my understanding is that before such a thing happens I need to do my part (specifically hand over something north of $200,000), and to insist that I have faith that my new Lamborghini is on its way given I haven't done the "handing over money" stage is to do little more than deny reality. Yes, it is theoretically possible that God will follow up the first chapter of Genesis with a proclamation "Let there be a gleaming black Lamborghini Huracan on tango's driveway" and see, as I'm sure I would, that it was good. I just wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.

I think the bottom line is that we should be wary of a "faith" that requires a total disconnect from reality - while God may call some of us to demonstrate such a faith the chances are most of us aren't going to be praying for fire from heaven. The hope of things unseen can describe our place in heaven as much as the things we might like to see on earth.

 

[tango]

How does "lean not on your own understanding" from Proverbs 3 fit in on any of this?

I think that could cover a number of things. It may be that God will require some great leap of faith from us. It may be that we need to overcome our human understanding that we get our "three-score-years-and-ten" and then we're worm food until Mother Nature recycles the nutrients from our bodies back into the earth.

From a mortal perspective, "first there was nothing, then God created something, then God created man, then God fell out with man over a fruit tree, then God sacrificed himself to himself over that centuries-old disagreement over a fruit tree so some of us can live forever" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Lamb]

I think that could cover a number of things. It may be that God will require some great leap of faith from us. It may be that we need to overcome our human understanding that we get our "three-score-years-and-ten" and then we're worm food until Mother Nature recycles the nutrients from our bodies back into the earth.

From a mortal perspective, "first there was nothing, then God created something, then God created man, then God fell out with man over a fruit tree, then God sacrificed himself to himself over that centuries-old disagreement over a fruit tree so some of us can live forever" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The gospel is foolishness to unbelievers...quite true. It doesn't sound reasonable at all that we don't have to do something for salvation and yet it's true that God does it all.