Sanctification - You aren't alone

[popsthebuilder]

(So if osas is a thing and we aren't to do anything but confess that we are followers as opposed to being followers and actually doing the following then who are these verses to?)

2 Peter 2: 9. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13. And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14. Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15. Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16. But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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[popsthebuilder]

Yes God sees ppl as holy or not, but He clearly sees the difference between an Egyptian king who is nice to Abraham and a pharao who oppresses His people. People are always judged on how they treated Israel and His people. The last judgement: you gave Me water, the least of My brothers, so the sheep treated His people good..

Don't bail dangit.

It's okay that most don't understand out point.

Even making fun of the way I communicate is fine.

They may not understand it, but at least two of you do. And I get what you are trying to say too.

People would love for others to just fold their hand and give up, but for those who believe faith to be effectual and causal to works pleasing to GOD, generally also seem to believe in not backing down.

Let it be one sided....it's more fun that way anyway.

peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Question 1: Then why are we told that there is but One payment for sin and those who know of the Truth yet never turn towards IT have a fearful expectation indeed?

Answer 1: Jesus was the only payment acceptable. Those who don't know the truth can't turn to Him. That's why we have the Great Commission for believers to go out and give them the Gospel which changes them by giving them faith. Those who reject that faith in the Savior (who made the payment) reject the payment and don't receive it. Are they fearful of hell if they don't believe anyway?



Question 2: if fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith then how much does one's faith grow which has never been watered from the start?

Answer 2: If faith is not watered (by God's Word) then it could possibly die! We know that from scripture. Faith comes by hearing God's Word (receiving it) and faith is strengthened in us by the Holy Spirit but we can refuse to grow by turning to the world and worldly things and away from the godly and His Word.



Question 3: What I am trying to say is that though works are not necessarily salvific per say; faith is effectual and one who professes one thing yet secretly does another is more damned than one who lives morally through the conscience which is not seared( naturally and or ignorantly).

Answer 3: You are actually judging based on a human lens instead of through the lens of God. God sees things either as holy or not. We can't be holy apart from Jesus. Even though we as Christians have faith, we do horrible things and God who sees these things because there is a Law and Gospel distinction that exists, He uses the Law to bring us to contrition and turns us by faith back to Him. As humans we think that isn't right because we want punishment. But Jesus took all that punishment. By faith we receive what Jesus earned. Those who are ignorant of him through God's lens are still unholy. They cannot make themselves holy because of Original Sin no matter how good they are to their neighbors.



Question 4. Why are we told that we will be judged by Christ if we are seen pure as Christ? I don't understand that.

Answer 4: God told us there will be a day of Judgment. The Law puts fear into us and accuses us. It's the Gospel that will bring us comfort. Under the Law I see that my works are horrible and not enough. Under the Gospel I realize that Jesus did the works sufficient for my salvation and that allows me to breathe so that I can live my life in doing the things that need to be done for my neighbor since God doesn't expect any more payment from me.

Your first answer seems to be about people in ignorance. I was asking about believers specifically, though I have mentioned atheists or agnostics a couple of times.

Your second answer seems to agree with my premise, that faith is effectual and causal to change in one's life. Do you think there is no reaction to refusing to grow in faith as you put it?

Number three you claim I am judging with a carnal or dirty looking glass, but I'm not talking about any in particular and am going off of scripture and what I know to be true. So that really is not accurate.

Your last answer seems wholly along the lines of what one would do who believes works are a product of faith. I don't really see how it applies to us not doing anything.

It seems the main basis of grace alone, seems to be that works pleasing to GOD aren't for salvation but due to it.

I can agree with that.



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[NewCreation435]

Sanctification has both a broad and narrow sense. Here in this thread I should have put the disclaimer that we are referring to the narrow sense of the word.

Yes, Justification is a legal term wherein God declares us not guilty on account of the Christ who died for our sins. By faith we receive His righteousness. God already says to us because of Christ, Well done my faithful servant.

In sanctification we get to live out our lives as those set apart now that we have the righteousness of Christ. In sanctification we cooperate with the Holy Spirit. There is a quote from Luther somewhere where he describes sanctification as God is the ox pulling the cart and the fly on its tail beating its wings is our part of pulling the cart.

You do know that Luther wasn't always right don't you?

 

[popsthebuilder]

That's why Josiah and I are always trying to show the proper distinction between Law and Gospel and Justification and Sanctification and when they get all muddied by people it is carried over into the wrong thread!!

The distinction is the muddling up friend.

If one is saved then their silent works between them and GOD reflect such.

If one was to believe works to be causal to salvation, then that would be the same as faith being causal to works because one cannot do works pleasing to GOD without faith in Christ and abiding by law of the Spirit written on the hearts and minds of the believer.

If one professes their works them they obviously aren't saved.

If one denies works wholly then they aren't safe either according to scripture.

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[Tigger]

You do know that Luther wasn't always right don't you?

Food for thought in my selfish heart:

“I am more afraid of my own heart than of the pope and all of his cardinals. I have within me the great pope, Self”.-Martin Luther

 

[Lamb]

The distinction is the muddling up friend.

If one is saved then their silent works between them and GOD reflect such.

If one was to believe works to be causal to salvation, then that would be the same as faith being causal to works because one cannot do works pleasing to GOD without faith in Christ and abiding by law of the Spirit written on the hearts and minds of the believer.

If one professes their works them they obviously aren't saved.

If one denies works wholly then they aren't safe either according to scripture.

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I think that you aren't disagreeing with what I wrote here in the thread? Your wording is a little confusing to know if you are agreeing.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I think that you aren't disagreeing with what I wrote here in the thread? Your wording is a little confusing to know if you are agreeing.

I believe we are in agreement but word it differently.

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[user1234]

yes you can do without the they are dumb pelagians too but dont. this is good for me to stop posting. addicting wasting away my life. i must pray and save souls

why do i get stopped wheni tell menno to act normal but belittling here is okay
because religion
so bye

I agree, there often seems to be a double-standard when it comes to freedom of expression here.
And those that often CLAIM grace alone and accuse others of works, don't actually believe/practice grace alone themselves, and are steeped in their own religious works, denominationalism and dogmatism, and they refuse to see it.

It's a shame, and I understand you, but I hope you dont leave, because you're a sister in Christ, not some atheist bible trasher that's just trying to cause trouble .... You care about souls being saved, not religious dominance/oppression of others, and I'm with you on that all the way!

Your opinion here is valuable to me and even moreso, as saved believers in Jesus... plus, everyones deserves to be heard and considered, not stepped over and ignored by a double-standard.

All believers are on equal footing in God's Kingdom, and should treat each other that way, not stepping over some like the guy at the pool in the Bible.

To: popsthebuilder (and Imalive too) re: osas ...
I want to address your question, and I see the misunderstanding over it (I tried to explain it to Ima before, but I probably didnt do a very good job of it) but some ppl have this idea in their head that it either means we should tell ppl to go live like the devil (To quote Daffy Duck: 'consequences shmonsequences, as long as I'm rich!...(or saved, in this case, lol))
or that somehow doing any good deeds or 'works' are somehow evil and should be avoided like the plague.

Both ideas are ridiculous and very far from the truth, but it seems that those that are pro-works-righteousness and anti-grace-osas have been able to define the terms and cause alot of confusion over the subject, and convince others that osas is a lie from the devil or something. It's not.

(Perhaps the way THEY define it, it IS, but that's not the truth of what it means, and actually osas is the truth of our Saviour)
I've said before, and no one has refuted it...Everyone in heaven right now believes osas is true.

Unfortunately, this is a sanctification only thread, and I wasnt permitted to discuss it in the salvation thread, (so Where?) and I dont get to make the rules of who's allowed to say what where. I kinda wish Imalive had that authority. :cheer: :disgonbegood: