Sanctification - You aren't alone

[popsthebuilder]

It's not Biblical either. If you give one of these a glass of water your loan you will get. There are atheists and muslims who give money and clothes to christians from a good heart. God sees that and I believe they will get saved and accept Him. Romans 2
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Noone can be holy and serve God perfect without Christ, yes, but that's something different than saying they are totally corrupt like the devil. Since the fall it became a mix. Unbelievers still have a conscience though, otherwise they'd all go around killing everyone like a bunch of demons. That is totally depraved, Sodom, before the flood, they became that bad by wrong choices and searing their conscience.

Your assertion about Sodom in surely plausible if not right on.

I don't quite understand these words though;

"It's not Biblical either. If you give one of these a glass of water your loan you will get."

To give in not to loan; it is not done with expectation of return to me. Can you clarify this singular statement please?

Thanks

peace


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[popsthebuilder]

Yes, we are born with the capacity to do good and evil toward our neighbor. The problem comes when you look at it from God's perspective. For it to be counted righteous it has to be done out of faith (see the verses about Abraham and faith). SO when we do good works that our neighbors need, if an unbeliever does them, they are not good in God's eyes because without faith there is no good. Faith covers us in the righteousness of the Savior.

You seem to be missing that contrary to the general consensus; one can be good and ignorant, and safe. If they abide by the will of the Christ in ignorance it will not be counted to them as evil or iniquity.

Romans 4: 8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 5: 5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

( Sorry it is a scrambled mess; I have work to do now)

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[Lamb]

You can't look at Romans 4:8 without first reading 4:7. Maybe that's what messed you up?

Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.


Same thing with Romans 5:5...you have to read the context which starts at Romans 5:
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,

Your verses are not contradicting what I have been saying but are backing up my words.
It says exactly what I've been telling you.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You can't look at Romans 4:8 without first reading 4:7. Maybe that's what messed you up?

Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.


Same thing with Romans 5:5...you have to read the context which starts at Romans 5:
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,

Your verses are not contradicting what I have been saying but are backing up my words.
It says exactly what I've been telling you.

All I'm saying is that one/ all is/are judged by GOD by their works.

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[Lamb]

All I'm saying is that one/ all is/are judged by GOD by their works.

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And since I'm a Christian all my works are judged under Christ's righteousness and God sees me as He sees His Son which is Holy.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And since I'm a Christian all my works are judged under Christ's righteousness and God sees me as He sees His Son which is Holy.

Then why are we told that there is but One payment for sin and those who know of the Truth yet never turn towards IT have a fearful expectation indeed?

if fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith then how much does one's faith grow which has never been watered from the start?

What I am trying to say is that though works are not necessarily salvific per say; faith is effectual and one who professes one thing yet secretly does another is more damned than one who lives morally through the conscience which is not seared( naturally and or ignorantly).

Why are we told that we will be judged by Christ if we are seen pure as Christ? I don't understand that.

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[Lamb]

Then why are we told that there is but One payment for sin and those who know of the Truth yet never turn towards IT have a fearful expectation indeed?

if fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith then how much does one's faith grow which has never been watered from the start?

What I am trying to say is that though works are not necessarily salvific per say; faith is effectual and one who professes one thing yet secretly does another is more damned than one who lives morally through the conscience which is not seared( naturally and or ignorantly).

Why are we told that we will be judged by Christ if we are seen pure as Christ? I don't understand that.

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Question 1: Then why are we told that there is but One payment for sin and those who know of the Truth yet never turn towards IT have a fearful expectation indeed?

Answer 1: Jesus was the only payment acceptable. Those who don't know the truth can't turn to Him. That's why we have the Great Commission for believers to go out and give them the Gospel which changes them by giving them faith. Those who reject that faith in the Savior (who made the payment) reject the payment and don't receive it. Are they fearful of hell if they don't believe anyway?



Question 2: if fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith then how much does one's faith grow which has never been watered from the start?

Answer 2: If faith is not watered (by God's Word) then it could possibly die! We know that from scripture. Faith comes by hearing God's Word (receiving it) and faith is strengthened in us by the Holy Spirit but we can refuse to grow by turning to the world and worldly things and away from the godly and His Word.



Question 3: What I am trying to say is that though works are not necessarily salvific per say; faith is effectual and one who professes one thing yet secretly does another is more damned than one who lives morally through the conscience which is not seared( naturally and or ignorantly).

Answer 3: You are actually judging based on a human lens instead of through the lens of God. God sees things either as holy or not. We can't be holy apart from Jesus. Even though we as Christians have faith, we do horrible things and God who sees these things because there is a Law and Gospel distinction that exists, He uses the Law to bring us to contrition and turns us by faith back to Him. As humans we think that isn't right because we want punishment. But Jesus took all that punishment. By faith we receive what Jesus earned. Those who are ignorant of him through God's lens are still unholy. They cannot make themselves holy because of Original Sin no matter how good they are to their neighbors.



Question 4. Why are we told that we will be judged by Christ if we are seen pure as Christ? I don't understand that.

Answer 4: God told us there will be a day of Judgment. The Law puts fear into us and accuses us. It's the Gospel that will bring us comfort. Under the Law I see that my works are horrible and not enough. Under the Gospel I realize that Jesus did the works sufficient for my salvation and that allows me to breathe so that I can live my life in doing the things that need to be done for my neighbor since God doesn't expect any more payment from me.

 

[Imalive]

Your assertion about Sodom in surely plausible if not right on.

I don't quite understand these words though;

"It's not Biblical either. If you give one of these a glass of water your loan you will get."

To give in not to loan; it is not done with expectation of return to me. Can you clarify this singular statement please?

Thanks

peace


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Lol sorry, you don't speak Dunglish. It's a Bible text. I'll look up the proper translation. In Dutch it is loon, I translate that w loan.
Oh reward, not loan, lol.

He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”
Matthew 10

 

[Imalive]

Question 1: Then why are we told that there is but One payment for sin and those who know of the Truth yet never turn towards IT have a fearful expectation indeed?

Answer 1: Jesus was the only payment acceptable. Those who don't know the truth can't turn to Him. That's why we have the Great Commission for believers to go out and give them the Gospel which changes them by giving them faith. Those who reject that faith in the Savior (who made the payment) reject the payment and don't receive it. Are they fearful of hell if they don't believe anyway?



Question 2: if fear of the Lord is the beginning of faith then how much does one's faith grow which has never been watered from the start?

Answer 2: If faith is not watered (by God's Word) then it could possibly die! We know that from scripture. Faith comes by hearing God's Word (receiving it) and faith is strengthened in us by the Holy Spirit but we can refuse to grow by turning to the world and worldly things and away from the godly and His Word.



Question 3: What I am trying to say is that though works are not necessarily salvific per say; faith is effectual and one who professes one thing yet secretly does another is more damned than one who lives morally through the conscience which is not seared( naturally and or ignorantly).

Answer 3: You are actually judging based on a human lens instead of through the lens of God. God sees things either as holy or not. We can't be holy apart from Jesus. Even though we as Christians have faith, we do horrible things and God who sees these things because there is a Law and Gospel distinction that exists, He uses the Law to bring us to contrition and turns us by faith back to Him. As humans we think that isn't right because we want punishment. But Jesus took all that punishment. By faith we receive what Jesus earned. Those who are ignorant of him through God's lens are still unholy. They cannot make themselves holy because of Original Sin no matter how good they are to their neighbors.



Question 4. Why are we told that we will be judged by Christ if we are seen pure as Christ? I don't understand that.

Answer 4: God told us there will be a day of Judgment. The Law puts fear into us and accuses us. It's the Gospel that will bring us comfort. Under the Law I see that my works are horrible and not enough. Under the Gospel I realize that Jesus did the works sufficient for my salvation and that allows me to breathe so that I can live my life in doing the things that need to be done for my neighbor since God doesn't expect any more payment from me.

Yes God sees ppl as holy or not, but He clearly sees the difference between an Egyptian king who is nice to Abraham and a pharao who oppresses His people. People are always judged on how they treated Israel and His people. The last judgement: you gave Me water, the least of My brothers, so the sheep treated His people good..

 

[user1234]

Okay, it's no big deal to me, but I gotta laugh a little bit at this thread, bc the other thread was split bc ppl were accused of bringing sanctification into a 'salvation' thread.
But this thread is supposed to be about sanctification, yet many of the posts are about salvation, lol.

It seems near impossible to talk about the one without bringing the other into it.

Anyway, sanctification follows salvation, but how can we have a sensible discussion about sanctification if some ppl arent sure about salvation? So I guess the threads do inevitably cross.

(It's all about the cross)

 

[Lamb]

Yes God sees ppl as holy or not, but He clearly sees the difference between an Egyptian king who is nice to Abraham and a pharao who oppresses His people. People are always judged on how they treated Israel and His people. The last judgement: you gave Me water, the least of My brothers, so the sheep treated His people good..

On earth while living yes, God still has His Law in place and we are accused by that Law always. But the Gospel is what we live by and know that even if we falter we are covered under the righteousness of Jesus and when we die all our sins have been cleansed by His blood so that when judgment comes God sees His Son with whom He is well pleased.

 

[Lamb]

Okay, it's no big deal to me, but I gotta laugh a little bit at this thread, bc the other thread was split bc ppl were accused of bringing sanctification into a 'salvation' thread.
But this thread is supposed to be about sanctification, yet many of the posts are about salvation, lol.

It seems near impossible to talk about the one without bringing the other into it.

Anyway, sanctification follows salvation, but how can we have a sensible discussion about sanctification if some ppl arent sure about salvation? So I guess the threads do inevitably cross.

(It's all about the cross)

That's why Josiah and I are always trying to show the proper distinction between Law and Gospel and Justification and Sanctification and when they get all muddied by people it is carried over into the wrong thread!!

 

[Lamb]

In Justification we have the declaration of God placed upon us because of Jesus the Christ our Savior who died for the forgiveness of sins.

In Sanctification we have the freedom to live without the burden of having to work for salvation because we are declared free already. And with that we can serve our God in freedom and give service to our neighbors who need our good works and for us to bear fruit.

 

[Josiah]

In Justification we have the declaration of God placed upon us because of Jesus the Christ our Savior who died for the forgiveness of sins.

In Sanctification we have the freedom to live without the burden of having to work for salvation because we are declared free already. And with that we can serve our God in freedom and give service to our neighbors who need our good works and for us to bear fruit.

Well said....


Justification - God giving us the gift of life
Sanctification - living that life for God

It's not rocket science - except to those who must BLUR things because they are synergistic Pelagians who insist that actually self saves self (perhaps with a little help from a friend), who insist Jesus isn't the Savior (just an Offerer or Possibility Maker) and God is not the Author and GIVER of life (as the Creed and Bible say) but just the Enabler.... They confuse all this, entangle, muddy it all up - and make what is simple confusing.

 

[Imalive]

Well said....


Justification - God giving us the gift of life
Sanctification - living that life for God

It's not rocket science - except to those who must BLUR things because they are synergistic Pelagians who insist that actually self saves self (perhaps with a little help from a friend), who insist Jesus isn't the Savior (just an Offerer or Possibility Maker) and God is not the Author and GIVER of life (as the Creed and Bible say) but just the Enabler.... They confuse all this, entangle, muddy it all up - and make what is simple confusing.

bladiebladiebladiebla
This is the nice version for the nice cute christian ppl like you all who never really sin.
Now what do you tell someone who wants to shoot himself? Or go fornicate? A nice fine saved christian.
You are not a christian or whatever do it you're saved anyway? dont but youre still saved?
That is when the law comes in and the warnings w hell. So simple. Preaching to backsliders is different than preaching to normal fine christian and that ppl dont get and then I'm a works person or whatever and follow false teachers. Sigh.

 

[Lamb]

bladiebladiebladiebla
This is the nice version for the nice cute christian ppl like you all who never really sin.
Now what do you tell someone who wants to shoot himself? Or go fornicate? A nice fine saved christian.
You are not a christian or whatever do it you're saved anyway? dont but youre still saved?
That is when the law comes in and the warnings w hell. So simple. Preaching to backsliders is different than preaching to normal fine christian and that ppl dont get and then I'm a works person or whatever and follow false teachers. Sigh.

We could do without that first gibberish because even though you might feel frustrated you don't have to respond like that.

 

[Imalive]

We could do without that first gibberish because even though you might feel frustrated you don't have to respond like that.

yes you can do without the they are dumb pelagians too but dont. this is good for me to stop posting. addicting wasting away my life. i must pray and save souls.

 

[Imalive]

why do i get stopped wheni tell menno to act normal but belittling here is okay
because religion
so bye

 

[NewCreation435]

This thread was begun because of the thread Passive Righteousness where many were confused between the two topics of Justification and Sanctification.

On the other thread pops asked:

Justification comes prior to sanctification as was pointed out in the Passive Righteousness thread. God gives us faith and when doing that He gives us the righteousness of Jesus which is holy and pure and something we cannot attain.

Sanctification is the life with the Holy Spirit working in us to produce holy living. Even with the Holy Spirit having us do the good works and bear fruit that He planned out for us, we still rely on that righteousness of Jesus to cover us. In our baptism we are clothed in Christ and if that clothing of Christ were removed, we would be left in our sin and could not be saved. It is always about Jesus.

I would slightly disagree with your definitions. Sanctification is defined as "set apart as or declare holy; consecrate." There is a sense in which sanctification is both past, present and future. It has a past tense in that I am as holy, consecrated and set apart as I am going to get the day I am saved. God declares me as holy and therefore I am justified in his sight. The present tense has to do with the daily giving up of sinful lifestyle and yielding ourselves to him. Our taking up our cross and following him. Then there is a future tense in which all sins will simply not exist anymore, when I will hear the Lord say "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
Justification is a legal term. It speaks of the fact that I am just in God's sight. For me, that occured the day I was saved back in June 1983 when I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and turned from my self being on the throne of my life. Jesus became the Savior and the Lord of my life. In my opinion, it did not occur in Baptism, but Baptism was a time of testimony to let others know in the church and community of what had happened within me already.

 

[Lamb]

I would slightly disagree with your definitions. Sanctification is defined as "set apart as or declare holy; consecrate." There is a sense in which sanctification is both past, present and future. It has a past tense in that I am as holy, consecrated and set apart as I am going to get the day I am saved. God declares me as holy and therefore I am justified in his sight. The present tense has to do with the daily giving up of sinful lifestyle and yielding ourselves to him. Our taking up our cross and following him. Then there is a future tense in which all sins will simply not exist anymore, when I will hear the Lord say "Well done, my good and faithful servant."
Justification is a legal term. It speaks of the fact that I am just in God's sight. For me, that occured the day I was saved back in June 1983 when I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and turned from my self being on the throne of my life. Jesus became the Savior and the Lord of my life. In my opinion, it did not occur in Baptism, but Baptism was a time of testimony to let others know in the church and community of what had happened within me already.

Sanctification has both a broad and narrow sense. Here in this thread I should have put the disclaimer that we are referring to the narrow sense of the word.

Yes, Justification is a legal term wherein God declares us not guilty on account of the Christ who died for our sins. By faith we receive His righteousness. God already says to us because of Christ, Well done my faithful servant.

In sanctification we get to live out our lives as those set apart now that we have the righteousness of Christ. In sanctification we cooperate with the Holy Spirit. There is a quote from Luther somewhere where he describes sanctification as God is the ox pulling the cart and the fly on its tail beating its wings is our part of pulling the cart.