Sanctification - You aren't alone

[Lamb]

This thread was begun because of the thread Passive Righteousness where many were confused between the two topics of Justification and Sanctification.

On the other thread pops asked:

I like how you closed your argument. I would agree and tried to state as much when asking. That is that it is the will of GOD that causes even the initial change in one's heart even prior to receiving salvation.

But how does one separate this from sanctification after salvation?

If we are saved would we not be caused by GOD and out love for GOD, to show works of the spirit that coincide with the actual Spirit of GOD? how is such not out of love which is the singular command? Rather; how is it not considered salvific?

Thank you sincerely

peace

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Justification comes prior to sanctification as was pointed out in the Passive Righteousness thread. God gives us faith and when doing that He gives us the righteousness of Jesus which is holy and pure and something we cannot attain.

Sanctification is the life with the Holy Spirit working in us to produce holy living. Even with the Holy Spirit having us do the good works and bear fruit that He planned out for us, we still rely on that righteousness of Jesus to cover us. In our baptism we are clothed in Christ and if that clothing of Christ were removed, we would be left in our sin and could not be saved. It is always about Jesus.

 

[Tigger]

Colossians 1:27 God wanted his people throughout the world to know the glorious riches of this mystery-which is Christ living in you, giving you the hope of glory.

The bolded part pretty much sums up sanctification. ...'Christ' living in you=verb...

 

[popsthebuilder]

I get that; but my whole point is that if we aren't lead by the Spirit or our conscience is seared then do we actually believe and are we actually saved? In other words I suppose; is faith without works actual effectual saving faith in the self-sacrifice and example and Way?

Are we told we will be living the good life here on Earth as far as the eyes of man can discern; an easy ride? Or are we told that we will be tried and tested and to endure but that the burden is light for the true believer?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

I get that; but my whole point is that if we aren't lead by the Spirit or our conscience is seared then do we actually believe and are we actually saved? In other words I suppose; is faith without works actual effectual saving faith in the self-sacrifice and example and Way?

Are we told we will be living the good life here on Earth as far as the eyes of man can discern; an easy ride? Or are we told that we will be tried and tested and to endure but that the burden is light for the true believer?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

You asked, "...if we aren't lead by the Spirit?"

That question is doubting that the Spirit will do His job within us. Can you see that point?

Our salvation is by grace through faith and this not of ourselves. Yes, we are warned by the Law that without works we perish...but the Gospel says that we are saved not by works. Those by faith WILL do works. There are those who are doing works and aren't even aware of it, as in "Lord, Lord, when did we do those things for you?"

The Bible never promises the Christian an easy life. The Bible promises us the joy of salvation that is because we don't have to work for it...Christ already did the work. HE is our hope. That is the ease of burden that we don't have to work. But that doesn't mean we'll face hard times because look at the things the disciples had to endure.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You asked, "...if we aren't lead by the Spirit?"

That question is doubting that the Spirit will do His job within us. Can you see that point?

Our salvation is by grace through faith and this not of ourselves. Yes, we are warned by the Law that without works we perish...but the Gospel says that we are saved not by works. Those by faith WILL do works. There are those who are doing works and aren't even aware of it, as in "Lord, Lord, when did we do those things for you?"

The Bible never promises the Christian an easy life. The Bible promises us the joy of salvation that is because we don't have to work for it...Christ already did the work. HE is our hope. That is the ease of burden that we don't have to work. But that doesn't mean we'll face hard times because look at the things the disciples had to endure.

So do you agree that one is known by their works? Or rather the nature of their spirit is known through the works they produce?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

So do you agree that one is known by their works? Or rather the nature of their spirit is known through the works they produce?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Are you asking if we can know if someone is a Christian by their works?

If that's your question the answer will be NO. We can't always know if a person who does good things is a Christian or not. We might have a clue but sin gets in the way. We are still sinful people. We commit sins! Does that mean we aren't Christian? No.

Only God knows who is faithful. We can't see who has been given faith. We see signs here and there but it's not a litmus test for assurance and even Jesus said to not separate the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the tare because WE will make mistakes and not get it right.

 

[Josiah]

Pops

I'm genuinely sorry, I don't think I'm understanding your question here.....

 

[popsthebuilder]

Are you asking if we can know if someone is a Christian by their works?

If that's your question the answer will be NO. We can't always know if a person who does good things is a Christian or not. We might have a clue but sin gets in the way. We are still sinful people. We commit sins! Does that mean we aren't Christian? No.

Only God knows who is faithful. We can't see who has been given faith. We see signs here and there but it's not a litmus test for assurance and even Jesus said to not separate the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the tare because WE will make mistakes and not get it right.

I'm not saying to go around judging everyone.

I'm saying one showing evil works most likely has an evil heart. Which is in scripture to me.

Are we not told to test the spirits.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

I'm not saying to go around judging everyone.

I'm saying one showing evil works most likely has an evil heart. Which is in scripture to me.

Are we not told to test the spirits.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Or he went off his medication? You can't possibly know who has faith.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Or he went off his medication? You can't possibly know who has faith.

If one only has faith in GOD when medicated then maybe they don't have saving faith.

That is in no way to be conflated with me saying those prescribed medication are in some error, or that those deemed abnormal by the knowledge of man are somehow not safe or equal to all else.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

If one only has faith in GOD when medicated then maybe they don't have saving faith.

That is in no way to be conflated with me saying those prescribed medication are in some error, or that those deemed abnormal by the knowledge of man are somehow not safe or equal to all else.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

If someone is outright stating he doesn't believe in Jesus then we will accept his confession of no faith. That doesn't mean that God isn't working in Him because we cannot see that part. We also accept when someone has a confession of faith in the Savior but we don't know if that person is lying. Only God does.

 

[MennoSota]

So do you agree that one is known by their works? Or rather the nature of their spirit is known through the works they produce?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

One is known by the fruit, produced by the Spirit.
Any effort of mine, apart from the Spirit, is as corrupt as an atheists efforts. There is no naturally good work. The Spirit produces good fruit.

 

[MennoSota]

Pops

I'm genuinely sorry, I don't think I'm understanding your question here.....

So...I'm not the only one who can't figure out what pops is asking? Whew!

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not saying to go around judging everyone.

I'm saying one showing evil works most likely has an evil heart. Which is in scripture to me.

Are we not told to test the spirits.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

All humans have is an evil heart. We are born in sin. Only in Christ are we made holy. This is why God is given glory.

 

[popsthebuilder]

One is known by the fruit, produced by the Spirit.
Any effort of mine, apart from the Spirit, is as corrupt as an atheists efforts. There is no naturally good work. The Spirit produces good fruit.

So we are known by the fruits that are produced through us then....same difference

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

So we are known by the fruits that are produced through us then....same difference

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

No, not the same difference...unless you are acknowledging that humans are corrupt at their core and incapable of producing God honoring actions apart from Christ.

 

[Imalive]

So...I'm not the only one who can't figure out what pops is asking? Whew!

I do understand him, but I don't need sanctification. My speech is holy in every way, cause I speak Dutch. I am willing to give a course in Dutch for 99,95.
Since that other thread got closed I complained to my Dutch friends about you ppl, that you talk so weird always. Talk normal Dutch. I get pops though. Maybe he has Dutch roots.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No, not the same difference...unless you are acknowledging that humans are corrupt at their core and incapable of producing God honoring actions apart from Christ.

I never denied or confirmed such.

If creation is wholly evil and made by an all knowing GOD in HIS image then what does that say about GOD who knowingly formed us wholly evil, and then punishes us for following the natural inclinations that GOD created us with?

Such is asanine lunacy and making the Spirit of GOD (Holy Spirit) out to be evil; the only unforgiven sin.

We are born with the capacity for good and evil.

We are inclined towards evil due to societal normalities, greed, pride, and fear.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Imalive]

I never denied or confirmed such.

If creation is wholly evil and made by an all knowing GOD in HIS image then what does that say about GOD who knowingly formed us wholly evil, and then punishes us for following the natural inclinations that GOD created us with?

Such is asanine lunacy and making the Spirit of GOD (Holy Spirit) out to be evil; the only unforgiven sin.

We are born with the capacity for good and evil.

We are inclined towards evil due to societal normalities, greed, pride, and fear.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

It's not Biblical either. If you give one of these a glass of water your loan you will get. There are atheists and muslims who give money and clothes to christians from a good heart. God sees that and I believe they will get saved and accept Him. Romans 2
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Noone can be holy and serve God perfect without Christ, yes, but that's something different than saying they are totally corrupt like the devil. Since the fall it became a mix. Unbelievers still have a conscience though, otherwise they'd all go around killing everyone like a bunch of demons. That is totally depraved, Sodom, before the flood, they became that bad by wrong choices and searing their conscience.

 

[Lamb]

We are born with the capacity for good and evil.

Yes, we are born with the capacity to do good and evil toward our neighbor. The problem comes when you look at it from God's perspective. For it to be counted righteous it has to be done out of faith (see the verses about Abraham and faith). SO when we do good works that our neighbors need, if an unbeliever does them, they are not good in God's eyes because without faith there is no good. Faith covers us in the righteousness of the Savior.