The vine, the vinekeeper and being cut off (split from Passive Righteousness thread)

Imalive

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Who cares what the virgins thought. What does God think?
You keep running after straw men. Look at God and observe what God thinks.

God says: dont stray so you dont get cut off and the reason is so you dont fall for the end time delusion and stay safe.
 

popsthebuilder

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That would be part of SANCTIFICATION, it has nothing to do with being saved. Salvation is by believeing in Jesus, His finished work on our behalf.




Scripture tells us once saved always saved. Our eternal destiny is secure in Christ, our works dont apply.
Can you give scriptural reference for osas please?

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popsthebuilder

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Read Romans and get back to me.
Wait; are you claiming two gospels?

I've read Romans multiple times and believe I have a firm grasp on it.

If you have some particular verse in mind and some point, then please produce them.

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Imalive

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Wait; are you claiming two gospels?

I've read Romans multiple times and believe I have a firm grasp on it.

If you have some particular verse in mind and some point, then please produce them.

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You did? You read Romans? I thought only Mennosota read it. He tells everyone to read it LOL.
 

psalms 91

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Who cares what the virgins thought. What does God think?
You keep running after straw men. Look at God and observe what God thinks.
She is, who inspired the scriptures? Or is God not a part?
 

MennoSota

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Wait; are you claiming two gospels?

I've read Romans multiple times and believe I have a firm grasp on it.

If you have some particular verse in mind and some point, then please produce them.

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What exactly are you looking for. You have been bouncing all over the map. State exactly what you believe and I will provide verses for the specific issues upon which you disagree with me.
 

MennoSota

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psalms 91

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Who cares what the virgins thought. What does God think?
You keep running after straw men. Look at God and observe what God thinks.
This post is what I am talking about
 

Imalive

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Maybe God cares about people and we should too.
Here security and warnings all neatly in one:
Hebrews 10

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

The Just Live by Faith
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me[h] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He[j] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[k] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[l]

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
 

MennoSota

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Maybe God cares about people and we should too.
Here security and warnings all neatly in one:
Hebrews 10

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

The Just Live by Faith
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me[h] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He[j] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the[k] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[l]

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Not once do we read that a person loses their salvation in that passage. You have to add your own presupposition to make such a conclusion.
It is a strong reminder that Jesus atonement is the only payment for sin and we can have great confidence in His atonement.
There is no loss of salvation being taught in Hebrews 10.
 

popsthebuilder

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What exactly are you looking for. You have been bouncing all over the map. State exactly what you believe and I will provide verses for the specific issues upon which you disagree with me.
Why do we have to disagree?

You said read Romans as if I was wrong about some thing and reading Romans would right it. I stated that I have read Romans and do understand it, but I've heard very many say there are multiple gospels of salvation and that Romans or St. Paul taught a separate gospel; one that denies works out right or some such nonsense. If that isn't the case then cool; but you still seemed to be the one insinuating I was wrong on some point so it would be for you to at least state said point that we may discuss it, not me, and not hoping to disagree.

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Imalive

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Not once do we read that a person loses their salvation in that passage. You have to add your own presupposition to make such a conclusion.
It is a strong reminder that Jesus atonement is the only payment for sin and we can have great confidence in His atonement.
There is no loss of salvation being taught in Hebrews 10.

No they don't, but they still consider one another. Where is it? In James? That if a brother sins you pray and he comes back and you warn. Warning w hell or w cutting off is so someone doesnt stray and stays saved.
All those on Pauls ship would be safe said an angel. Then the prisoners tried to escape and Paul said: stay on the ship else you die. It doesnt contradict each other.
 

NewCreation435

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Who would possibly do that, the vine or the vinekeeper?
Will God unadopt his children?

I believe the reference may have been from Romans 11:18-23 where it says.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

(underline mine)
 

MennoSota

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Why do we have to disagree?

You said read Romans as if I was wrong about some thing and reading Romans would right it. I stated that I have read Romans and do understand it, but I've heard very many say there are multiple gospels of salvation and that Romans or St. Paul taught a separate gospel; one that denies works out right or some such nonsense. If that isn't the case then cool; but you still seemed to be the one insinuating I was wrong on some point so it would be for you to at least state said point that we may discuss it, not me, and not hoping to disagree.

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I don't even know what you are talking about. State exactly what you are debating and we can talk. Until then I find your words incomprehensible.
What, exactly is your issue?
 

MennoSota

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I think the whole chapter needs quoting and I prefer a readable translation.
Romans 11:2-36
[2]No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,
[3]“lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.”
[4]And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”
[5]It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
[6]And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
[7]So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.
[8]As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, *** and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
[9]Likewise, David said, “Let their bountiful table become a snare, *** a trap that makes them think all is well. Let their blessings cause them to stumble, *** and let them get what they deserve.
[10]Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, *** and let their backs be bent forever.”
[11]Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
[12]Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
[13]I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this,
[14]for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.
[15]For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
[16]And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
[17]But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.
[18]But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
[19]“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.”
[20]Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
[21]For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
[22]Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
[23]And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree.
[24]You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
[25]I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
[26]And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, *** and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
[27]And this is my covenant with them, *** that I will take away their sins.”
[28]Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
[29]For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? *** Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much *** that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
 

NewCreation435

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I think the whole chapter needs quoting and I prefer a readable translation.
Romans 11:2-36
[2]No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,
[3]“lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.”
[4]And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”
[5]It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
[6]And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
[7]So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.
[8]As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, *** and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
[9]Likewise, David said, “Let their bountiful table become a snare, *** a trap that makes them think all is well. Let their blessings cause them to stumble, *** and let them get what they deserve.
[10]Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, *** and let their backs be bent forever.”
[11]Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
[12]Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
[13]I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this,
[14]for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.
[15]For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
[16]And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
[17]But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.
[18]But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
[19]“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.”
[20]Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
[21]For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
[22]Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
[23]And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree.
[24]You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
[25]I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
[26]And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, *** and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
[27]And this is my covenant with them, *** that I will take away their sins.”
[28]Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
[29]For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? *** Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much *** that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.

were you going to respond to the passage I quoted?
 

popsthebuilder

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I don't even know what you are talking about. State exactly what you are debating and we can talk. Until then I find your words incomprehensible.
What, exactly is your issue?
I have none friend.

Only looking to edify one another in peacable profitable conversation.



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popsthebuilder

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I think the whole chapter needs quoting and I prefer a readable translation.
Romans 11:2-36
[2]No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,
[3]“lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.”
[4]And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”
[5]It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
[6]And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
[7]So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.
[8]As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, *** and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
[9]Likewise, David said, “Let their bountiful table become a snare, *** a trap that makes them think all is well. Let their blessings cause them to stumble, *** and let them get what they deserve.
[10]Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, *** and let their backs be bent forever.”
[11]Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves.
[12]Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.
[13]I am saying all this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I stress this,
[14]for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.
[15]For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
[16]And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their descendants will also be holy—just as the entire batch of dough is holy because the portion given as an offering is holy. For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
[17]But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.
[18]But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
[19]“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.”
[20]Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
[21]For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
[22]Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
[23]And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree.
[24]You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.
[25]I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
[26]And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, *** and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
[27]And this is my covenant with them, *** that I will take away their sins.”
[28]Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
[29]For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
[30]Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.
[31]Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.
[32]For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
[33]Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
[34]For who can know the lord’s thoughts? *** Who knows enough to give him advice?
[35]And who has given him so much *** that he needs to pay it back?
[36]For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Even the works of the believer are to HIS glory.

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