Be good or you won't get into heaven

[Stravinsk]

Works isn't what saves though. Works are done because we have the Holy Spirit in us to guide us into doing those things.

[snip]

Christian: What are you doing?

Rural resident of a non Christian country/culture: I'm feeding these people, they have nothing to eat

Christian: Ah! So you're a Christian!

RR: Huh? What's that?

Christian: You know, Jesus. Died for our sins and was raised again! You must be, otherwise how could you have the holy spirit to enable you to feed the poor?

RR: I don't understand. I know not who this Jesus fellow is or what a Holy Spirit is. But these people are hungry, and I have food, it's just the right thing to do.
Weren't you able to do this before you believe as you do now?

Christian: Well, er..no...because my sinful body I inherited from Adam and Eve

RR: I see. But now you are able, no?

Christian: Why yes! Jesus has saved me and now because I believe I can do this thing you are doing!

 

[Lamb]

Christian: What are you doing?

Rural resident of a non Christian country/culture: I'm feeding these people, they have nothing to eat

Christian: Ah! So you're a Christian!

RR: Huh? What's that?

Christian: You know, Jesus. Died for our sins and was raised again! You must be, otherwise how could you have the holy spirit to enable you to feed the poor?

RR: I don't understand. I know not who this Jesus fellow is or what a Holy Spirit is. But these people are hungry, and I have food, it's just the right thing to do.
Weren't you able to do this before you believe as you do now?

Christian: Well, er..no...because my sinful body I inherited from Adam and Eve

RR: I see. But now you are able, no?

Christian: Why yes! Jesus has saved me and now because I believe I can do this thing you are doing!

Okay.

Christians do understand that nonbelievers will do good things for others. Your point really makes no sense in this thread.

 

[Stravinsk]

Okay.

Christians do understand that nonbelievers will do good things for others. Your point really makes no sense in this thread.

I was merely responding to your quote.

 

[Lamb]

I was merely responding to your quote.

Works are only considered "good" by God if they're done by those who have faith.

 

[Stravinsk]

Works are only considered "good" by God if they're done by those who have faith.

Insofar as the RR person does what he or she does for the right reasons, I'd say their faith in this matter of doing good for others is not for you or me or anyone else to judge.

 

[Lamb]

Insofar as the RR person does what he or she does for the right reasons, I'd say their faith in this matter of doing good for others is not for you or me or anyone else to judge.

Faith in the Savior is what God wants and counts our deeds as good.

 

[Imalive]

Insofar as the RR person does what he or she does for the right reasons, I'd say their faith in this matter of doing good for others is not for you or me or anyone else to judge.

Romans 2 if gentiles w out the law do by nature the things in the law they are themselves to a law, their conscience convincing them.
God sees it. He once showed me everything my dad had done for me, when he was totally not christian.

 

[Andrew]

Its interesting to see all the OT characters fall short and in the NT we see our example and it's finished. The rest is determined by if we accept Christ and are baptised (written in the lambs book)...

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[ImaginaryDay2]

Its interesting to see all the OT characters fall short and in the NT we see our example and it's finished.

True, but "by faith" OT 'Saints' did many things, and received the "promise" through Christ. See Hebrews.

 

[Andrew]

True, but "by faith" OT 'Saints' did many things, and were called righteous. See Hebrews.

Oh I agree, just that before in the OT it is very difficult to find a specific person that didn't stumble a time or two as Christ knew no sin... to be more 'Christ-like' is to follow his example imo

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[tango]

Go in peace, keep warm and well fed. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha that is a horrible thing to say to someone who's hungry. James is funny.

I guess a modern day equivalent would be when we are perfectly capable of helping someone who desperately needs it but instead prefer to do little more than pat them on the head and assure them that we'll pray for them. Maybe they do need our prayers but perhaps they also need something much more tangible, right now.

 

[tango]

Given what Jesus said about "not everyone who says to me 'Lord Lord' will enter the kingdom but only those who do the will of the Father" and "when you did it (not) to the least of these you did it (not) to me", I am often minded to wonder whether there is more to this whole thing than people like to think. We love because God first loved us. James said that pure and undefiled religion was helping widows and orphans in their distress (and, presumably by extension, those in general unable to help themselves).

Does somebody who displays what we would call the fruit of the Spirit, who does the whole loving thing, who tends to those in need, even if they have never heard of this mysterious Jesus person, show more signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit than some people who call themselves Christians? And if so what, if anything, might we conclude about the whole issue of salvation?

 

[Lamb]

Oh I agree, just that before in the OT it is very difficult to find a specific person that didn't stumble a time or two as Christ knew no sin... to be more 'Christ-like' is to follow his example imo

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Following Christ's example deals with sanctification. That doesn't get us into heaven.

 

[Lamb]

Given what Jesus said about "not everyone who says to me 'Lord Lord' will enter the kingdom but only those who do the will of the Father" and "when you did it (not) to the least of these you did it (not) to me", I am often minded to wonder whether there is more to this whole thing than people like to think. We love because God first loved us. James said that pure and undefiled religion was helping widows and orphans in their distress (and, presumably by extension, those in general unable to help themselves).

Does somebody who displays what we would call the fruit of the Spirit, who does the whole loving thing, who tends to those in need, even if they have never heard of this mysterious Jesus person, show more signs of the presence of the Holy Spirit than some people who call themselves Christians? And if so what, if anything, might we conclude about the whole issue of salvation?

Those who said Lord Lord and Jesus did not know them...they were trying to do their own works to get into heaven instead of relying on HIS work on the cross. Those who did works weren't even aware they were doing them for him.

There are certainly non-Christians who are very nice people and do wonderful things for others, taking care of their needs. But without faith, their works are like dirty menstrual rags according to the bible. It won't get them anywhere.

 

[Stravinsk]

There are certainly non-Christians who are very nice people and do wonderful things for others, taking care of their needs. But without faith, their works are like dirty menstrual rags according to the bible. It won't get them anywhere.

Actually that's just according to the 13th apostle, not one of the ones Christ hand picked unless you believe his own testimony, the murderer from the tribe of Benjamin, tribe of the ravening wolf.

If you were in need and the non-christian person with charity offered you food, would you take it and then declare their deeds like used menstrual rags and judge them as if you were God? Talk about cheek.

 

[Lamb]

Actually that's just according to the 13th apostle, not one of the ones Christ hand picked unless you believe his own testimony, the murderer from the tribe of Benjamin, tribe of the ravening wolf.

If you were in need and the non-christian person with charity offered you food, would you take it and then declare their deeds like used menstrual rags and judge them as if you were God? Talk about cheek.

You're trying to give justification to someone because you know that we should love our neighbors more than ourselves. But we either have a Savior or we don't. If we don't have a Savior our works don't save us.

 

[Imalive]

I guess a modern day equivalent would be when we are perfectly capable of helping someone who desperately needs it but instead prefer to do little more than pat them on the head and assure them that we'll pray for them. Maybe they do need our prayers but perhaps they also need something much more tangible, right now.

Yes I've seen ppl say that. Well if you really cant help em its great. We had a guy in church w 230000 debt and noone had that much money. We could give him a few hundred to live but we dont have many millionairs in church, so lol we prayed and floop debt was gone. Bank couldnt find it. He only had 230 euro debt left. 3 zeros supernaturally disappeared. Dont know if an angel hacked the computer but that was amazing.

 

[Stravinsk]

You're trying to give justification to someone because you know that we should love our neighbors more than ourselves. But we either have a Savior or we don't. If we don't have a Savior our works don't save us.

I am? It's the Christians who are always saying they are "saved" or trying to determine if they are really or if they could lose it or have lost it or whatever. They constantly need to satisfy themselves that they are right with God/going to heaven etc. In other words, it's all up to their own judgement. Because this is so, they also judge others out of the same mindset (by the measure you use...)

If I were to proclaim the charitable non-christian "justified", would this not put me in the place of the Judge? Of course it would. I can only see the action, not the heart and not the balance of their choices in life.

In other words, it's not my place to judge their life. Nor is it my place to judge mine and proclaim myself "justified".

 

[Imalive]

I am? It's the Christians who are always saying they are "saved" or trying to determine if they are really or if they could lose it or have lost it or whatever. They constantly need to satisfy themselves that they are right with God/going to heaven etc. In other words, it's all up to their own judgement. Because this is so, they also judge others out of the same mindset (by the measure you use...)

If I were to proclaim the charitable non-christian "justified", would this not put me in the place of the Judge? Of course it would. I can only see the action, not the heart and not the balance of their choices in life.

In other words, it's not my place to judge their life. Nor is it my place to judge mine and proclaim myself "justified".

You can let God test your heart like David said. And the Holy Spirit tells you you're saved. But ppl can also be mislead. If you judge others you do the same thing. LOL I always notice that when I judge. But if someone isnt saved you notice and then they need some help to get saved, not some dumb finger pointing.

 

[Lamb]

I am? It's the Christians who are always saying they are "saved" or trying to determine if they are really or if they could lose it or have lost it or whatever. They constantly need to satisfy themselves that they are right with God/going to heaven etc. In other words, it's all up to their own judgement. Because this is so, they also judge others out of the same mindset (by the measure you use...)

If I were to proclaim the charitable non-christian "justified", would this not put me in the place of the Judge? Of course it would. I can only see the action, not the heart and not the balance of their choices in life.

In other words, it's not my place to judge their life. Nor is it my place to judge mine and proclaim myself "justified".

None of us can judge who is going to heaven because we can't see who has faith in the Savior. But for those who reject Him and do so loud and clear, well, we have a clue that they aren't a believer and thus, damn themselves. Our works don't make us Christian. Just because someone isn't doing enough according to someone else to help his neighbor...that doesn't mean he isn't a Christian. None of us do enough for our neighbors.