Crucified with Christ

[Lamb]

I read that normally they had a say, at least w a rapist. He had to keep her or pay, depending on what she wanted. Rebecca wanted herself. Rachel didnt want her sister to marry her boyfriend, but they were sold by their dad they said. So thats a weird example of the church becoming the bride of Christ. God wanted Jerusalem, but they did not want. There has to be consent.

A covenant was always binding and the covenant was agreed to by the two parties...the bride was not the one involved in the arrangement. If you look at history, you'll see that the Father was the one wanting to find a bride for his son. He searched out for the perfect one and then paid a price to the bride's father. A covenant was made. They were considered betrothed and it was binding. Do you see how the bride doing or saying anything did not make the covenant?

 

[NewCreation435]

I'm curious what you're talking about in reference to obey and being a puppet? I've heard other evangelicals complain about some puppet on a string theory but I don't see Paul complaining anywhere in the bible about it. When people use things such as that to make their case that isn't found in scripture, it's hard to back that case up.

What I do see is that a Father doesn't ask the baby's permission before adopting him. The baby doesn't have to decide to love the Father because the trust is built up by the Father's working in Him.

Too many Jesus is my boyfriend songs have brought about the need to have to say Yes and they use the bride and bridegroom reference. But as a Christian, I'm not the bride but I belong to the one true Church which IS the Bride. Do you see how there is a difference? Just because Rachel said Yes doesn't mean that her Yes made the betrothal because it was her Father that had already agreed to the covenant of marriage. And that's how it was done. The Father was the one who agreed to the marriage. It is upon his yes that the covenant is made.

Now, getting back to where you suggested obey...I'm really confused how that works into what I'm talking about for salvation. Do you really think you are doing something for your salvation? We are given faith by God to believe and we do believe but it's not a work. Or are you talking about our daily living now that we are Christians? Being crucified with Christ we have Him living in us. The Holy Spirit guides us into the works we do and the fruits we bear. That's part of being one with God. Is that a puppet?

Because a puppet has no will of his own. The way you make salvation sound reminds me of hearing about Calvin's irresistible grace. Essentially, we are going to heaven whether we like it or not or want to or not. If that were the case though, I would expect that a lot more people would be saved. But, as it is, we can resist that grace and turn to our own ways. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and knocks. He doesn't knock the door down.

 

[Lamb]

Because a puppet has no will of his own. The way you make salvation sound reminds me of hearing about Calvin's irresistible grace. Essentially, we are going to heaven whether we like it or not or want to or not. If that were the case though, I would expect that a lot more people would be saved. But, as it is, we can resist that grace and turn to our own ways. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and knocks. He doesn't knock the door down.

What does the bible say about God's will and man's will?

That verse about Jesus standing at the door...that's addressed to believers. So that can't be used as proof for your belief that man has to give God permission first.

Yes, we can resist and turn away from God's grace. But does that mean God stops trying? Doesn't He put his net into the waters to keep fishing? It's not because of the will of the fish that he gets caught. But the fish is obstinate and keeps jumping back into the water

 

[NewCreation435]

What does the bible say about God's will and man's will?

That verse about Jesus standing at the door...that's addressed to believers. So that can't be used as proof for your belief that man has to give God permission first.

Yes, we can resist and turn away from God's grace. But does that mean God stops trying? Doesn't He put his net into the waters to keep fishing? It's not because of the will of the fish that he gets caught. But the fish is obstinate and keeps jumping back into the water

Yes, I think you can say "no" to God enough times that God will give you what you want. I've met people like that who keep resisting God. Going back to my point, don't you think there would be millions or even billions more people saved if we truly couldn't resist salvation and God was going to save us. If it is truly God's desire for all of us to be saved and for none to perish.
I believe God's Word affirms both free will and God's sovereignty. Like I said before, we are not puppets without any will of our own. Jesus first message to the masses was to repent and believe in the gospel. He asks us to respond. Look at the following verses

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."

It says the one who loves the darkness hates the light and won't come to the light. That speaks of free will.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, I think you can say "no" to God enough times that God will give you what you want. I've met people like that who keep resisting God. Going back to my point, don't you think there would be millions or even billions more people saved if we truly couldn't resist salvation and God was going to save us. If it is truly God's desire for all of us to be saved and for none to perish.
I believe God's Word affirms both free will and God's sovereignty. Like I said before, we are not puppets without any will of our own. Jesus first message to the masses was to repent and believe in the gospel. He asks us to respond. Look at the following verses

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."

It says the one who loves the darkness hates the light and won't come to the light. That speaks of free will.

Of course there is a choice but I think that on this issue we will have to agree to disagree as evidenced by how many pages and threads are argued here. I firmly believe what I believe as others firml;y believe the other way so it is pointless in my opinion to keep going at it. You have scripture and so do we, our disagreement is in how we read those scriptures. In case you are confused I am on the side that believes we do have a choice and that the bible makes it clear

 

[Lamb]

It says the one who loves the darkness hates the light and won't come to the light. That speaks of free will.

Actually that shows that the will is bound to sin like Luther says.

 

[NewCreation435]

Of course there is a choice but I think that on this issue we will have to agree to disagree as evidenced by how many pages and threads are argued here. I firmly believe what I believe as others firml;y believe the other way so it is pointless in my opinion to keep going at it. You have scripture and so do we, our disagreement is in how we read those scriptures. In case you are confused I am on the side that believes we do have a choice and that the bible makes it clear

in case you missed it, I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Imalive]

Actually that shows that the will is bound to sin like Luther says.

But if you bind those demons they are free to choose and then its a free yes or no will.

 

[popsthebuilder]

What does the bible say about God's will and man's will?

That verse about Jesus standing at the door...that's addressed to believers. So that can't be used as proof for your belief that man has to give God permission first.

Yes, we can resist and turn away from God's grace. But does that mean God stops trying? Doesn't He put his net into the waters to keep fishing? It's not because of the will of the fish that he gets caught. But the fish is obstinate and keeps jumping back into the water

"But the fish is obstinate and keeps jumping back into the water"

To me it sounds like a fish that might indeed be freed from the net; only to land on dry earth. A fish that is caught is given up for food. As in being believers of the Shepherd we follow. It says He will come for that one sheep that has gone astray, but it also says that once reunited or rather caught up in the flock; we aren't allowed to venture out and away again; knowing well that our Shepherd is wholly good and will keep us(or actually we are wholly allowed but that we shouldn't expect to be saved again, but can look forward to the displeasure of our Lord.

Hebrews 10: 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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[MennoSota]

But, as it is, we can resist that grace and turn to our own ways. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and knocks. He doesn't knock the door down.

jsimms, does God fail to accomplish His will because you dislike his will? God made his choice regarding grace before the foundations of the world. Can you thwart that by your own will?
Please wisely consider your answer.
Second, please stop abusing Revelation 3:16 by ripping it out of context. The door Jesus knocked on was that of the saints, not the unregenerate. Jesus desired to sup with the Laodiceans who were of no use in that they were neither hot nor cold. Indeed, God shall accomplish his will with or without you. His desire is that you would love your King and obey him, but should you not obey, he will accomplish his will despite you. Think of Mordecai reminding Esther of that truth. Think of Jesus parable of the three servants to whom the King entrusted his wealth. God is not thwarted...ever.

 

[NewCreation435]

jsimms, does God fail to accomplish His will because you dislike his will? God made his choice regarding grace before the foundations of the world. Can you thwart that by your own will?
Please wisely consider your answer.
Second, please stop abusing Revelation 3:16 by ripping it out of context. The door Jesus knocked on was that of the saints, not the unregenerate. Jesus desired to sup with the Laodiceans who were of no use in that they were neither hot nor cold. Indeed, God shall accomplish his will with or without you. His desire is that you would love your King and obey him, but should you not obey, he will accomplish his will despite you. Think of Mordecai reminding Esther of that truth. Think of Jesus parable of the three servants to whom the King entrusted his wealth. God is not thwarted...ever.

I was wondering what was taking you so long to jump into the conversation and say something like that. . . .
Yes, I know God can accomplish his will with or without me. God never meets with me on the basis on his need. Never. God needs nothing from us.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I was wondering what was taking you so long to jump into the conversation and say something like that. . . .
Yes, I know God can accomplish his will with or without me. God never meets with me on the basis on his need. Never. God needs nothing from us.

We are told we will be replaced by a better people if we do not abide. We definitely can not slow or change the will of GOD ultimately, and HIS will seems to be wholly merciful and just as well.

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[MennoSota]

I was wondering what was taking you so long to jump into the conversation and say something like that. . . .
Yes, I know God can accomplish his will with or without me. God never meets with me on the basis on his need. Never. God needs nothing from us.

Yet you state:

But, as it is, we can resist that grace and turn to our own ways.

Can we resist grace or can't we? I'm not aware of any verse that says we can resist grace. If you know of such a verse or passage, please share it.

 

[Andrew]

Yet you state:

Can we resist grace or can't we? I'm not aware of any verse that says we can resist grace. If you know of such a verse or passage, please share it.

Can one reject Gods grace? Or do you simply mean 'resist'? Resist id say no, reject i would believe so

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[NewCreation435]

Can one reject Gods grace? Or do you simply mean 'resist'? Resist id say no, reject i would believe so

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Okay, let's start with Romans 1:21-25 for example
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."


You notice that it says in verse 21 they knew God, but then it says in verse 24 that God gave them over to uncleanness. They chose not to honor him and then he gave them over to uncleanness. I underlined it for you.

 

[MennoSota]

Can one reject Gods grace? Or do you simply mean 'resist'? Resist id say no, reject i would believe so

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Verse? I can't think of a verse that teaches you can reject God's grace.

 

[Andrew]

Verse? I can't think of a verse that teaches you can reject God's grace.

I believe j just answered it for you

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[MennoSota]

I believe j just answered it for you

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So there is nothing in Scripture?
All you did was state an unsubstantiated opinion. Will you stick with that answer?

 

[Andrew]

So there is nothing in Scripture?
All you did was state an unsubstantiated opinion. Will you stick with that answer?

I was going to suggest backsliding in general, ex discipling, Judas, its taught much but a direct verse depends on the reader, a bit of connecting the dots which is difficult to show someone especially with people of different views. But yes I agree with what j posted. Im just being lazy about to call it a night. Perhaps I'll look for the verses im talking about tomorrow, but who ever willingly rejects Gods grace has to be completely turned away and against Christ (either with him or against him)

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[MennoSota]

I was going to suggest backsliding in general, ex discipling, Judas, its taught much but a direct verse depends on the reader, a bit of connecting the dots which is difficult to show someone especially with people of different views. But yes I agree with what j posted. Im just being lazy about to call it a night. Perhaps I'll look for the verses im talking about tomorrow, but who ever willingly rejects Gods grace has to be completely turned away and against Christ (either with him or against him)

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John 6:70-71
[70]Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.”
[71]He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him.

Jesus states what he already knew. There is nothing in his statement that Judas rejected grace.

Romans 9:21-22
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
There is nothing about a person rejecting grace, that I can find.