Passive Righteousness

[Lamb]

http://www.rjgrune.com/blog/two-kinds-of-righteousness

"Passive righteousness is the vertical relationship between God and man. God does the work. The only contribution that man brings into this equation is sin. This is a righteousness that is alien; it is completely outside of ourselves."

The underline section is my emphasis. That part is so true. The righteousness we receive from God is not something we have asked for or say yes or no to. It is given to us because as the above says, our only contribution we bring to the relationship is sin.

 

[psalms 91]

Sigh, a whole new thread arguing what was in the old. Again man has a choice and he will in my opinion as long as I am on this board. As I have stated before many times if we have no choice then we are not responsible for what we do and are free to do anything because it is God and not us that chooses

 

[tango]

http://www.rjgrune.com/blog/two-kinds-of-righteousness

"Passive righteousness is the vertical relationship between God and man. God does the work. The only contribution that man brings into this equation is sin. This is a righteousness that is alien; it is completely outside of ourselves."

The underline section is my emphasis. That part is so true. The righteousness we receive from God is not something we have asked for or say yes or no to. It is given to us because as the above says, our only contribution we bring to the relationship is sin.

If righteousness is not something we asked for, does that mean we have the righteousness from God regardless of our relationship (or lack thereof) with Jesus Christ?

 

[NewCreation435]

http://www.rjgrune.com/blog/two-kinds-of-righteousness

"Passive righteousness is the vertical relationship between God and man. God does the work. The only contribution that man brings into this equation is sin. This is a righteousness that is alien; it is completely outside of ourselves."

The underline section is my emphasis. That part is so true. The righteousness we receive from God is not something we have asked for or say yes or no to. It is given to us because as the above says, our only contribution we bring to the relationship is sin.

That is of course not the only thing that man brings to it. Man brings himself to the relationship. You can't have a relationship with someone who is merely a robot and has no control over what he is saying or doing. We bring ourselves into the relationship, our hopes, dreams, goals and heart. It is a love relationship that God seeks with us. It isn't truly love if I had no choice about it.

 

[Lamb]

Sigh, a whole new thread arguing what was in the old. Again man has a choice and he will in my opinion as long as I am on this board. As I have stated before many times if we have no choice then we are not responsible for what we do and are free to do anything because it is God and not us that chooses

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..."

 

[NewCreation435]

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..."

I wouldn't argue with you that God initiates the relationship. That isn't what we are really debating here. It is the idea that people are completely passive in the process that is troubling

 

[Lamb]

If righteousness is not something we asked for, does that mean we have the righteousness from God regardless of our relationship (or lack thereof) with Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness [absurd and illogical] to those who are perishing and spiritually dead [because they reject it]"

The relationship we have with God is not something that is begun by us but by Him. Unbelievers want nothing to do with God. We can't have a relationship with God unless he initiates it and He does so by His Word (go ye into the world and preach the gospel...faith comes by hearing, etc)

 

[psalms 91]

The Holy Spirit woos us and we make a decision whether to go forward or not, the decision is oursa, if not then we truly are robots and it doesnt matter what we do or dont do

 

[Lamb]

I wouldn't argue with you that God initiates the relationship. That isn't what we are really debating here. It is the idea that people are completely passive in the process that is troubling

Covered in sin how do you receive something...passively because your sin can't reach out to grab hold. It is placed upon you. Passively. Like the rain falling down, you didn't do anything to have it fall on your head.

 

[Lamb]

That is of course not the only thing that man brings to it. Man brings himself to the relationship. You can't have a relationship with someone who is merely a robot and has no control over what he is saying or doing. We bring ourselves into the relationship, our hopes, dreams, goals and heart. It is a love relationship that God seeks with us. It isn't truly love if I had no choice about it.

Are you saying that righteousness isn't given unless man gives God something first (hopes, dreams, goals, heart)?

God wants us to love Him but that isn't a requirement in receiving Christ's righteousness. We receive what He gives because He first loves us. Our love comes later when HE builds the relationship just like a father and child. The child only realizes as he grows how much he loves his father. He doesn't go into the relationship first saying he'll love him and give him his heart because he's a mere infant.

 

[Lamb]

The Holy Spirit woos us and we make a decision whether to go forward or not, the decision is oursa, if not then we truly are robots and it doesnt matter what we do or dont do

How can you decide if you're stuck in sin and the gospel is foolishness without the Holy Spirit first giving you faith?

 

[psalms 91]

How can you decide if you're stuck in sin and the gospel is foolishness without the Holy Spirit first giving you faith?

As with any gift we have to accept it and open it for it to be, if not then it just sits there. So it is with salvation, we bring our sinful self to God who then begins to clean us up if we are willing. If we dont have a choice and it is all God then I think every person who went to hell has a bone to pick with God

 

[Lamb]

As with any gift we have to accept it and open it for it to be, if not then it just sits there. So it is with salvation, we bring our sinful self to God who then begins to clean us up if we are willing. If we dont have a choice and it is all God then I think every person who went to hell has a bone to pick with God

What does the man who is covered in sin and the gospel message is foolishness to him decide?

 

[psalms 91]

What does the man who is covered in sin and the gospel message is foolishness to him decide?

As with the prodigal you will reach the end of yourself and find wisdom or as with sadly some you die in your foolishness

 

[Lamb]

As with any gift we have to accept it and open it for it to be, if not then it just sits there. So it is with salvation, we bring our sinful self to God who then begins to clean us up if we are willing. If we dont have a choice and it is all God then I think every person who went to hell has a bone to pick with God

I see you wrote ... "God who then begins to clean us up if we are willing". But the verse I showed you says that the gospel is foolishness to the unbeliever. The unbeliever won't be willing. Only God can make us believers. We can't choose that for ourselves.

 

[Lamb]

As with the prodigal you will reach the end of yourself and find wisdom or as with sadly some you die in your foolishness

The prodigal son was already a son and turned away from his father. That's a different story and doesn't apply here in this thread about passive righteousness.

 

[psalms 91]

You seem to focus exclusively on that verse, it does not say that they cant be shown their foolishness, as in go ye forth into all the world, why, because many will be saved because of this. If God does it all then what need to ever preach or teach the Word to anyone, God will just do it all

 

[Lamb]

You seem to focus exclusively on that verse, it does not say that they cant be shown their foolishness, as in go ye forth into all the world, why, because many will be saved because of this. If God does it all then what need to ever preach or teach the Word to anyone, God will just do it all

God uses His word to bring us to faith.

We can definitely be shown our foolishness and sin through God's Law. But the unbeliever can't repent and turn to God. It's God who turns us to Him.

 

[tango]

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness [absurd and illogical] to those who are perishing and spiritually dead [because they reject it]"

The relationship we have with God is not something that is begun by us but by Him. Unbelievers want nothing to do with God. We can't have a relationship with God unless he initiates it and He does so by His Word (go ye into the world and preach the gospel...faith comes by hearing, etc)

Sure, but that's not the same as righteousness. If righteousness is something we didn't ask for it implies we have it whether we wanted it or not.

If God reaches out to us and we respond, isn't that the time we get the righteousness? When we've specifically made a decision to accept what God is offering us?

 

[tango]

How can you decide if you're stuck in sin and the gospel is foolishness without the Holy Spirit first giving you faith?

The Holy Spirit may give you the faith to start believing something that seemed absurd a few days previously, but you still have the free choice to reject it anyway, no?

If God imposes righteousness upon us without us doing anything at all, not even making a decision that we want it, then we become little more than automatons and cannot truly love because we have no option to not love.